Exclude the Tomioka impostor:

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

Panagor are often Kirons, certainly the 2/28 and 2/35 Panagors are.

Yeah, you're right Mo, it is a bit of fun, but it can be taken too far. To use the sports analogy, you can spend a few pleasant hours debating who was the better cricketer - Bradman or Warne, or Botham or Flintoff, that's fun. But if you spend days on end analysing old match tapes, studying statistics, looking at minutiae, then it becomes a waste of time.

I don't know much about the Japanese Optical industry, but I've read a few books about Japan, trying to understand Japanese corporate and business culture is extremely difficult, companies in Japan have complex interwoven relationships and it all functions completely differently to business in the West. Even Westerners that have lived there for years don't fully understand how it all works. One key difference is how gifts play a huge part in business relationships. Companies give out expensive gifts to their partners, this is key to developing and maintaining business relationships in Japan. Also, business is done with people you know and have a relationship with, a Japanese must get to know you first before he will enter into a business relationship with you. It's all very complex, very alien to western minds and quite unfathomable to an outsider.

That's a large part of why I say trying to work out the minutiae of who made what for whom is a waste of time, like the Gaijin who lives and works 20 years in Tokyo and still doesn't understand the minutiae of Japanese business culture, we are going to remain largely ignorant of the actuality of how things worked.

mo · Expire: 2016-07-30

Yes,true... but everyone's different what bores you may be highly exciting for someone else (my son loves those basketball statistics...I think that's a waste of time, but hey he enjoys it and did come up with a valid point on why they are handy to know)

I always think some discovery may come from one of these "dead end" lens topics. You know one of those missing puzzle pieces that a new member may provide because they came across this topic out in cyber space. Very Happy

luisalegria · Expire: 2018-01-18

Japanese business certainly isn't impenetrable, and the relationships there certainly aren't as unlike "western" business as one could imagine. The only problem really, for most of us, is the language barrier.

I have worked in the machine tool business in California, way back in a previous life, and I know all about an environment of hundreds of subcontractors (LA and South Bay/SF Penninsula were like that) in the aerospace industry. And all about the relationship based partnerships and subcontracting. Japanese industry is not weird. Designs and details are very often worked out in partnerships and the basis for partnerships could be very complex. But its something that can certainly be understood.

And the parts, machined or glass, are not interchangeable between different basic types, in fact it would be unusual to find them so unless the lens is fundamentally the same. I have opened enough lenses to know on which Hanimex I can find a part that will go into a particular Vivitar. One needs to find a lens design in both that is fundamentally identical.

Individual bits and pieces from random lenses will almost never be swappable. For example, I have a couple of dozen Japanese 135/2.8 presets made in the 1960's. I have opened and disassembled all of them, at least partially. They fall very much into "families", where ALL the parts tend to be interchangeable within a "family". But not across "families". A "Tokina" is not a "Sankor" is not a "Tamron" is not a "Kawanon". About the only things that can be swapped between "families", sometimes, are the grub screws.

And the finish on lenses tends to be determined by the customer, in most cases where the customer has the will and the influence to get precisely what they want. Where that isn't the case the manufacturer normally had some default standard design. The details of finish are not random at all. One tends to find the same finish details in the same "family", but not in another.

As for Yashica, they are an odd case in some respects. Not only did they have partnerships with specific lens makers, they also happily bought in generic designs and rebranded them. Check out a 1960's Yashica lens "family photo" and you will spot a bunch of lenses that are found in a dozen other brands. And of course also a few that are Yashica-only.

Why bother to learn to spot "old familiars" ? Several reasons.

An early Tokina Auto 35/2.8 (the one often seen as a T4) has a certain predictable performance, which is pretty good. If you see the same lens as a Soligor, Vivitar, or a Hanimex, you have some confidence that you are looking at the same lens and can expect similar performance.

Another reason is for pure collectors interest. Its just like collecting stamps or coins or silverware or Picassos. Some of us really aren't good or even keen photographers. But we like having a shelf of all the Tamron Adaptamatics all neatly lined up and matching.

Another reason is parts. If I need a new rear cell for my Old Tamron 135/2.8 I know that I can look for a particular Soligor, Rokunar or Aetna Coligon and have a likely prospect.

As for Optomax, I gather that was an importers brand that carried many manufacturers designs. Not a different case than Soligor or Vivitar. If one wants a certain lens, and you can recognize it as an Optomax, then you know that much at least.

Pancolart · Expire: 2013-11-18

woodrim · Joined: 14 Jan 2010 Posts: 4060 Location: Charleston

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

Yeah, I wasted a lot of time and effort on lenses bought for next to nothing in the hope that I would uncover a hidden gem. I learnt that the approach I took was not a good way to go, instead of buying a dozen dirt cheap lenses in the hope one or two are really good, it would have been better to save my cash until I could afford one or two really good lenses, and there are more than enough really good lenses out there in the secondhand universe that we can all chose to avoid the crappy stuff.

I agree with what Luis said, there is a lot of commonality between third party lenses, that's why I'm pretty sure many lens makers bought parts from the same sources, especially the metal barrel parts. Another thing fujinonuser and luis mention that I have also noticed through personal experience - the older Japanese lenses, from before 1973 tend to be better quality, you can see this not only in the third party stuff but also in the major makers, clearly there was cost cutting after 73.

casualcollector · Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:27 pm Post subject:

I agree, 1973 give or take a year was the beginning of the change.

In the United States at that time, inflationary pressure was strong and the value of the US Dollar was falling in relation to the Yen and other currencies. As the US was Japan's largest market, Japanese manufacturers looked for ways to cut costs to hold price points. Where feasible, aluminum replaced brass, plastic replaced aluminum, molded parts replaced machined parts, some features disappeared.

calvin83 · Joined: 12 Apr 2009 Posts: 7588 Location: Hong Kong

Old lens have its own character but most modern lens are similar to each other. I think the 1950's to 1970's is the golden age for MF lenses lovers as many optical company produce lenses in different style(both mechanically and optically).

BTW, it might a good idea to open a thread for sharing our own experience on MF lenses to let others learn before they step into the ocean of MF lenses.

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

It's due to the level of corrections. The older lenses are less highly corrected, hence they have character.

praktiman · Joined: 15 May 2013 Posts: 22 Location: United States

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

Some PK Rikenons are M series Pentax. I forget where I read it now, but Ricoh made some lenses themselves, most were bought in.

visualopsins · Expire: 2025-04-11

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

There are so many 'coincidental' similarities between Tokina and Sun lenses of the 70s that I'm pretty sure they were using the same supplier for some metal barrel parts.

You'd go crazy trying to work this out, methinks. Smile

dimitrygo · Joined: 01 Apr 2009 Posts: 561

Pancolart · Expire: 2013-11-18

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

dimitrygo · Joined: 01 Apr 2009 Posts: 561