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Elmar 90/4 vs Elmar-C 90/4
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:00 pm    Post subject: Elmar 90/4 vs Elmar-C 90/4 Reply with quote
I have an fairly cheap offering (150€) for an silver Elmar 90/4 M-mount in near mint condition.

Does anyone know how it does compare versus the younger Elmar-C 90/4?


PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
no, but like you i have the elmar-c. i love my copy, very sharp, great color. are you not happy with your copy? i could understand interest in a faster 90, but i'm not sure you can find a noticeably better 90/4 than the -c, especially considering its price and size...
tony


PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Is the "silver" Elmar the last 3-element version? That lens has acquired something of a stellar reputation, largely thanks to Erwin Puts' recent comments on it, and usually sells for a much higher price than 150 Euro. If it is this version, buy it immediately Very Happy

Many years ago, though, it was already reputed to be an exceptional lens and encouraged by that I bought the last one we had in stock at the photo dealer where I was working. It was certainly a very nice lens - really light and truly excellent optically, much, much better than the 4-element 90mm Elmar. But, using Kodachrome and a Colorplan projection lens, there really wasn't any noticeable superiority over the chrome Tele Elmarit I also had. So I sold the Elmar . . .

Later, still tempted by the idea of the featherweight 90, I bought an Elmar-C. Maybe mine was not quite what it should have been, but - once again - using Kodachrome - it still wasn't showing results better than the older Tele Elmarit. In fact, to my eyes, it wasn't as pleasing as the 3-element Elmar. Looking back recently at some slides which I know were taken with it, I think the rangefinder coupling at close range might have been less than perfect . . . It was made to go with the CL and there were 'warnings' from Leitz at the time about the possibility that the CL lenses might not be dead-right on M cameras, although they were never absolutely clear about it.

Those were my experiences, for whatever they might now be worth.

If you can buy the 3-element Elmar for 150 Euros, you'll certainly see a good profit if you don't like it and decide to sell it on. It would be a safe bet to buy-and-try !


PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
scsambrook wrote:
Is the "silver" Elmar the last 3-element version? That lens has acquired something of a stellar reputation, largely thanks to Erwin Puts' recent comments on it, and usually sells for a much higher price than 150 Euro. If it is this version, buy it immediately Very Happy ...........................If you can buy the 3-element Elmar for 150 Euros, you'll certainly see a good profit if you don't like it and decide to sell it on. It would be a safe bet to buy-and-try !



+1

Excelent, Scsambrook.


PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
thats a very interesting analysis stephen, especially about using the 90-c on other than cl/cle cams. i had not heard that before. ive used it just a tiny bit on my bessa t, but was happy with the results, though certainly i do not have an extensive basis of comparison with film or different film cameras. on digital ive found the -c stellar. anyway, great info.
tony


PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi Tony !

If you're interested and want to spend time looking around, I think there's been posting on both Leica User forum and RRF forum about the "problems" of coupling CL lenses on M bodies. Maybe not much point if you're using the Elmar-C on a NEX or a Lumix, though Very Happy

It would be interesting to try the last Elmar and the Elmar-C in comparison with the Voigtlander 90 Apo Lanthar rangefinder lens. Mine is certainly better than my Tele Elmarit at f4, and maybe still just a bit better at f5.6. At least it is on my Lumix, the wretched thing doesn't couple properly on the M8 at closer ranges Crying or Very sad


PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thx for input!
Can anyone explain how to determine if I it's the 4 element or the better 3 element version?

rbelyell wrote:
no, but like you i have the elmar-c. i love my copy, very sharp, great color. are you not happy with your copy? i could understand interest in a faster 90, but i'm not sure you can find a noticeably better 90/4 than the -c, especially considering its price and size...
tony

I'm also generall happy with my copy, but I would make a little money when changing them. Also the other Elmar might have a better IQ

scsambrook wrote:
...
...I think there's been posting on both Leica User forum and RRF forum about the "problems" of coupling CL lenses on M bodies. Maybe not much point if you're using the Elmar-C on a NEX...

I've used the Elmar-C on Leica M5 and didn't noticed any serious focus shift. Worked very well even for potraits wide open! Same with the Summicron-C 40/2. My Nokton 50/1.1 had more focus shift @F2 while beeing a native M-lens!
On Leica M9 or high resolution films it might be a different show though than on my grainy films.


PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
thanks stephen, that really is interesting. i dont want to clutter up FSs thread, but as i said, based on a truly limited sample, i'm pretty happy with the -c on both my film bessa t and my gxr. below 1 from each, first on bessa t with ferrania 400 i believe, second with the gxr:


#1

#2


PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I doubt that the basic designs are all that much different. Age and condition would be more important.


PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oreste wrote:
I doubt that the basic designs are all that much different. Age and condition would be more important.


Ahh, sorry, but absolutely not so. The designs are very different and the results are poles apart. Condition is, of course, also very important.


PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Forenseil - check this eBay item -

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leitz-Elmar-90mm-f-4-RARE-3-elements-version-Germany-for-Leica-M-mount-/251163965601?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item3a7a89f8a1

that one is the 3 element model.


For the 4 element version, see

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lens-LEICA-LEITZ-90mm-f-4-Elmar-M-Mount-1960-x-ex-ex-/120990700346?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item1c2b9b933a

There's also a collapsible one which is the 4 element design.


PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tony -

those pics look great to me!

And apologies to Forenseil for 'taking over' his thread Embarassed


PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
yes apologies. just my way to say this is a hard lens to beat, imo.
tony


PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's this lens http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lens-LEICA-LEITZ-90mm-f-4-Elmar-M-Mount-1960-x-ex-ex-/120990700346?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item1c2b9b933a
in "nearly like new" condition, so only the 4 element version. Price is good but if lens isn't better than mine won't change.
I think will will stay with my Elmar-C until I find a cheap Elmarit

Here some additional Elmar-C shots:

(On NEX, heavy crop, with macro focusing adapter)


On Leica M5, rebranded Kodak 200
I can't see find any serious focus shift with the lens.


PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
pictures are great FS. very hard to do better with a slow lens than this -c. i have a cv75/2.5 when i want something faster...
tony


PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I apologize too, but must say don't forgive the rokkor 4/90 "C" - a Leica version with minolta name, I guess.

It's rare as elmar is. Perhaps a bit cheap.


PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The 90/4 Minolta is often more expensive than Leica Elmar-C.

On the net some people are saying that it's optically identical to the Elmar-C while others are saying that it's different.

My guess is that the first M-Rokkors were made in Germany by Leitz and later ones by Minolta in Japan when Leitz stopped Cl production?

I wonder if Minolta was able to enhance the lens optically? They had the knowledge and the time to tweak it!
Or maybe it's a completely different design?


PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I had the 4 element version just look like http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lens-LEICA-LEITZ-90mm-f-4-Elmar-M-Mount-1960-x-ex-ex-/120990700346?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item1c2b9b933a
in mint condition. I think it's about same price.
it has very nice detail, bokeh and color
Here's mine ELMAR 90
I never tried the C one. But I compared Voigt Apo lanthar 90/3,5 with elmar 90/4. Voigt better in Contrast, while elmar has better bokeh
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