Home

Please support mflenses.com if you need any graphic related work order it from us, click on above banner to order!
SearchSearch MemberlistMemberlist RegisterRegister ProfileProfile Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages Log inLog in

Contemplating 100mm-ish Macro Lenses- Advice Sought
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Home   Manual Focus Lenses
View previous topic :: View next topic  


PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tedat wrote:
hmmm.. nobody mentioned the "Bokina" (Vivitar Series 1 2.5/90 / Tokina ATX 2.5/90)?


http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=30894
http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=44984

$700 is enough to buy at least two "Bokina". Wink


PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kram wrote:
Fluffpuppy, thanks very much for all the great info!

The Elmar is much more affordable but I would need the extension tube as the close focus distance is 3.6 feet.

I like the idea of the 2.8 APO Elmarit which has a closer MFD of 2.3 feet.

Much to consider! Over my budget but I could sell things...

Which would also put me in the neighborhood of the 100/2.8 Makro-Planar.

I have the 60/2.8 C Makro-Planar and love it. Totally outperformed my 55/2.8 Micro-Nikkor.

Hmm...


OK, the best macro 100mm is the APO-Marco-Elmarit, so far as I know (at least among f/2.8 lenses). This doesn't mean that the others are trash, but if that's what you want, the Leica lens will provide it. It will last forever too. After a while, you'll forget all about the cost (you should be able to get a 3-cam one for about $1600 if you look around). Consider the lens will out-live you and it's a bargain! 20,000 were produced, so they are out there.



"Focusing range - 45 cm / 17.7 in < ∞"

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/100mm_f/2.8_APO-Macro-Elmarit-R

Also, I was wrong about the extension tube. Leica makes Elpro close-up attachments for it.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Zeiss Makro-Planar 2/100 ZE is my best lens. Among many expensive lenses.

Some complain about LoCA.
You may see some LoCA in "lab" tests, but in real life it is rarely an issue.
Except if you often shoot a black subject with a white background Smile

In the photozone.de tests, it broke the resolution record.

But it is not only sharpness. It is the sharpness, contrast and bokeh combination that is impossible (?) to beat.

Now that I've fixed the search function of the forum,
try searching for "Zeiss 2/100 ZE" to see the samples I have posted.

Advice: If you go for it, you may want to get the Nikon version.
A manual aperture is always nice to have, esp. with such a lens.
Of course, it is a bit annoying to do stop-down metering.

Last edited by Nikos on Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:53 pm; edited 2 times in total


PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
nkanellopoulos wrote:
The Zeiss Makro-Planar 2/100 is my best lens. Among many expensive lenses.

Some complain about CA.
You may see some CA in "lab" tests, but in real life it is rarely an issue.

In the photozone.de tests, it broke the resolution record.

But it is not only sharpness. It is the sharpness, contrast and bokeh combination that is impossible (?) to beat.

Now that I've fixed the search function of the forum,
try searching for "Zeiss 2/100 ZE" to see the samples I have posted.


Have you tried the APO-Macro-Elmarit? It is supposed to be basically diffraction-limited. I doubt the Zeiss lens you refer to can match it.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
FluffPuppy wrote:

Have you tried the APO-Macro-Elmarit? It is supposed to be basically diffraction-limited. I doubt the Zeiss lens you refer to can match it.

I have not tried the Leica.
You have not tried the Zeiss.
On which basis can we talk?
Company faith? Sorry, I am not so religious and I own no stocks.

I am not a millionaire. So I cannot afford Leica lenses.
If you lend me your APO-Macro-Elmarit, I will be happy to try it.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
nkanellopoulos wrote:
FluffPuppy wrote:

Have you tried the APO-Macro-Elmarit? It is supposed to be basically diffraction-limited. I doubt the Zeiss lens you refer to can match it.

I have not tried the Leica.
You have not tried the Zeiss.
On which basis can we talk?
Company faith? Sorry, I am not so religious and I own no stocks.

I am not a millionaire. So I cannot afford Leica lenses.
If you lend me your APO-Macro-Elmarit, I will be happy to try it.


I have tried neither, but from what I have read the Leica lens is supposed to be one of the best lenses, if not the best, ever commercially produced and offered to the public. Who knows what the CIA has? LOL

All the reviews rave about it.

http://slrlensreview.com/web/leica-slr-lenses-133/macro-slr-lenses-141/418-leica-apo-macro-elmarit-r-100mm-f28-leica-apo-macro-elmarit-r-100mm-f28-e60-lens-review.html

"Performance was top notch across the tested aperture range and both in the center as well as around borders, with basically no drop-offs whatsoever - a desirable characteristic in any lens. Conclusion? Results are simply outstanding. While medium telephoto lenses are in general pretty good performers (resolution-wise), Leica APO Macro Elmarit-R can be considered a benchmark for comparison even among this competitive group."

I have little interest in macro or nature photography, so I don't own one, but if I did, I would.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
FluffPuppy wrote:
Have you tried the APO-Macro-Elmarit? It is supposed to be basically diffraction-limited. I doubt the Zeiss lens you refer to can match it.

Who cares what the reviews say about the Leica, if they haven't compared it to the Zeiss? Anyway, there's more to a lens than just sharpness. The Leica most likely is a smidgeon sharper (seems to have a bit deeper DOF too), but its bokeh isn't as smooth as that of the Zeiss. It's my impression that the Leica's biggest strength is the super-saturated color rendering. See this comparison (continuing on the next page) http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1025651/0#9747210

I've heard that the Zeiss MP100/2 performs better at infinity focus than the Leica AME 100/2.8, and with its stronger LoCA it's probably fair to say that the Zeiss would be a less logical choice for a dedicated macro lens. The Leica isn't totally free of LoCA either though: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/810600/6&year=2009#7723934 Smile

My advice: weigh the different strenghts and character traits of a lens and see how they match your intended application(s) and preferences. The Zeiss gives you f/2,

Last edited by AhamB on Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:15 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
AhamB wrote:
FluffPuppy wrote:
Have you tried the APO-Macro-Elmarit? It is supposed to be basically diffraction-limited. I doubt the Zeiss lens you refer to can match it.

Who cares what the reviews say about the Leica, if they haven't compared it to the Zeiss? Anyway, there's more to a lens than just sharpness. The Leica most likely is a smidgeon sharper, but the bokeh isn't as smooth as that of the Zeiss. It's my impression that the Leica's biggest strength is the super-saturated color rendering. See this comparison (continuing on the next page) http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1025651/0#9747210


Here's the same reviewer on the Zeiss lens, which I am sure is a super lens:

http://slrlensreview.com/web/carl-zeiss-slr-lenses-51/macro-slr-lenses-96/287-carl-zeiss-makro-planar-t-100mm-f20-zf-lens-review.html

But it seems less specifically suited as a macro lens.

We are dealing with good lenses here, and the question of which is the better is almost pointless, but I would take the APO-Macro Elmarit for its superior macro capabilities, over the Planar, as the article points out.

"Naturally, one of the major interesting aspects of Carl Zeiss Makro Planar T* 100mm f/2 ZF is its macro capabilities. Compared to its previous Contax version, the Carl Zeiss Makro Planar T* 100mm f/2.8, the new lens does not offer life-size macro - Zeiss designers decided that 1:2 macro should suffice in this case. Is this really a problem? Depends whom you ask, but it does seem like a step back, especially when we take into consideration that Zeiss does not currently offer a 1:1 converter (unlike its main rival Leica). On the other hand, the lens offers larger maximum aperture - at f/2, both Makro Planar lenses (the 100mm f/2 and 50mm f/2) are among the fastest macro lenses available on the market."

Last edited by FluffPuppy on Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:03 pm; edited 2 times in total


PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
FluffPuppy wrote:

Here's the same reviewer on the Zeiss lens, which I am sure is a super lens:

http://slrlensreview.com/web/carl-zeiss-slr-lenses-51/macro-slr-lenses-96/287-carl-zeiss-makro-planar-t-100mm-f20-zf-lens-review.html

But it seems less specifically suited as a macro lens.

I would like to have the APO Lanthar 125mm.
But I am not willing to pay the crazy eBay prices.
When Voigtländer issues it again, I will get one.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
nkanellopoulos wrote:
FluffPuppy wrote:

Here's the same reviewer on the Zeiss lens, which I am sure is a super lens:

http://slrlensreview.com/web/carl-zeiss-slr-lenses-51/macro-slr-lenses-96/287-carl-zeiss-makro-planar-t-100mm-f20-zf-lens-review.html

But it seems less specifically suited as a macro lens.

I would like to have the APO Lanthar 125mm.
But I am not willing to pay the crazy eBay prices.
When Voigtländer issues it again, I will get one.


I think FluffPuppy is talking about the Leica Apo Elmarit not the Voigtlander Apo Lanthar Wink .....and the Leica is in the same price range as the Zeiss I guess...


PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
pich900 wrote:

I think FluffPuppy is talking about the Leica Apo Elmarit not the Voigtlander Apo Lanthar Wink .....and the Leica is in the same price range as the Zeiss I guess...

Yes, he is talking about the Leica.

Which poses an interesting question.
The Lanthar's price has doubled in the aftermarket.
The Elmarit's price has dropped to 1/3rd, according to the link FluffPuffy posted.

"On the street - $US 4,295 in 2008 - 1,300 (3-cam) - 1,600 (ROM) in 2010"

WHY?


PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
FluffPuppy wrote:
We are dealing with good lenses here, and the question of which is the better is almost pointless, but I would take the APO-Macro Elmarit for its superior macro capabilities, over the Planar, as the article points out.

I'd also take a hard look at the Voigtländer 125/2.5, which does 1:1 natively and has the best CA correction of all. Again: the differences in color rendering and bokeh between these macro lenses is not negligable, so I'd argue that the question which lens is "better" is not pointless. I'd recommend against trying to set some objective standard for "best" here.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
AhamB wrote:

I'd also take a hard look at the Voigtländer 125/2.5, which does 1:1 natively and has the best CA correction of all. Again: the differences in color rendering and bokeh between these macro lenses is not negligable, so I'd argue that the question which lens is "better" is not pointless. I'd recommend against trying to set some objective standard for "best" here.

I agree. Some things are a matter of taste.
And taste is subjective.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
nkanellopoulos wrote:
pich900 wrote:

I think FluffPuppy is talking about the Leica Apo Elmarit not the Voigtlander Apo Lanthar Wink .....and the Leica is in the same price range as the Zeiss I guess...

Yes, he is talking about the Leica.

Which poses an interesting question.
The Lanthar's price has doubled in the aftermarket.
The Elmarit's price has dropped to 1/3rd, according to the link FluffPuffy posted.

"On the street - $US 4,295 in 2008 - 1,300 (3-cam) - 1,600 (ROM) in 2010"

WHY?


There are 20,000 of them, probably. And on e-bay they are going for roughly $1500-2600.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=apo-macro%20elmarit-r&rt=nc&LH_PrefLoc=2&_dmpt=Camera_Lenses&_fln=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m283


PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
calvin83 wrote:
Tedat wrote:
hmmm.. nobody mentioned the "Bokina" (Vivitar Series 1 2.5/90 / Tokina ATX 2.5/90)?


http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=30894
http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=44984

$700 is enough to buy at least two "Bokina". Wink


ah ok... it's way too cheap to be a serious consideration.. I understand Wink


PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tedat wrote:
calvin83 wrote:
Tedat wrote:
hmmm.. nobody mentioned the "Bokina" (Vivitar Series 1 2.5/90 / Tokina ATX 2.5/90)?


http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=30894
http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=44984

$700 is enough to buy at least two "Bokina". Wink


ah ok... it's way too cheap to be a serious consideration.. I understand Wink


Just saw this. Hmm...

Meanwhile I have found a Leica 100/4 macro for sale...


PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:
my 2cts on that Mark:

- get your Nikon fixed so you'll be able to sell it
- $700 is a budget that lies in some "dead zone", not enough to afford outstanding glass like the Macro Apo Lanthar 2.5/125mm or the Apo Macro Elmarit 2.8/100mm (BUT that one does not allow you to focus with open aperture, only stopped down! Needs to have the mount LEITAXed anyway which adds cost), but too much for some other really good glass like the already mentioned Kiron 2.8/105mm (also sold cheaper as the medical version, brand name "Lester Dine")
- don't waste your money on a Zeiss ZF Macro Planar 2/100mm, I find its CA awful (unless you stop down to at least f4); had it, sold it.
- if you don't need the high speed or open aperture (but I guess you like that bokeh from teh work I've seen), the Apo Lanthar 3.5/90mm series II (Nikon version) + Nikon extension tube works really well and is much cheaper then then 125mm version. And you have the full electronic metering as it is a Nikon version. That matches your budget.


Klaus, thanks. I was hoping you would comment. Somehow I missed it earlier.

Yes, will get the Nikkor fixed.
I am used to stop down metering and recently got very fond of wide open macro, which I want to continue with. Leica to EOS adapter is all I need for that, right? I looked at the Kiron 2.8/105mm and my Nikkor 2.8/105 seems better.
Thanks for the tip on the ZF Macro Planar.

Now I am considering the Apo Lanthar 3.5/90mm series II or the Leica 100/4 macro with it's extension tube ($480). Any thoughts on this comparison?

PS: One day I may sell some lenses and go for the Elmarit 2.8/100.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't have Macro-Elmar 4/100, but I own APO-Lanthar 90 and APO-Macro-Elmarit 100 and both lenses are very close in image quality. Sharpness is comparable, only AME is better corrected for CA.
If you look at this old Leica R lenses comparison, you can see, that AME is fairly superior to Macro-Elmar. I expect, that Lanthar will be better too. The automatic aperture and better metering is nice bonus then.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
BRunner wrote:
I don't have Macro-Elmar 4/100, but I own APO-Lanthar 90 and APO-Macro-Elmarit 100 and both lenses are very close in image quality. Sharpness is comparable, only AME is better corrected for CA.
If you look at this old Leica R lenses comparison, you can see, that AME is fairly superior to Macro-Elmar. I expect, that Lanthar will be better too. The automatic aperture and better metering is nice bonus then.


Thanks for that BRunner!

For what it would cost me for the Macro-Elmar 4/100 + it's extension tube ($480 total) I could get a brand new APO-Lanthar 90 (plus about $70). Leaning that way.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
OK, so one last lens to consider, the Olympus 90/2 macro.

I shoot 99.9% hand-held and this might be great for that. Not sure how sharp it is wide open, but samples look pretty good.

Right now I lean toward the APO-Lanthar 90/3.5 SL II which would be cheaper as well. Thoughts?


PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kram, I've been following this thread with increasing distress and confusion. Let's check my understanding of your practice:

You shoot hand-held.

You adjust focus with the lens' focusing ring, not by changing lens-to-subject distance.

You didn't tell us how you light your subjects. Do you use electronic flash or ambient? I suspect ambient, hope I'm mistaken.

You shoot wide open. This strongly suggests that you use ambient light.

And you want a sharper lens.

Given your practice, getting a better lens seems to make little sense. If you use ambient light you lose so much image quality to uncontrolled motion (you, the subject) that getting a better lens won't get you better results. Oh, and by the way, the much-derided (in this thread) 105/2.8 MicroNikkor AIS is better than good enough.

Improve your technique before spending money on a better lens.

Standard practice when shooting close up, especially with mobile subjects (this includes flowers, in general anything that isn't firmly nailed down) is to set magnification by adjusting extension and then focusing by moving in-and-out to focus.

Why don't you buy a book? Two books, in fact. A. A. Blaker's Field Photography, which is oriented towards 35 mm SLRs and gives a lot of space to shooting at magnfications between 1:10 and 1:1, and Lester Lefkowitz' The Manual of Closeup Photography. Lefkowitz is a bit more technical and much stronger on shooting above 1:1.

I see that you're in the US, so your mind may have been poisoned by praise of John Shaw's book Closeups in Nature. Shaw is a very capable photographer but a terrible teacher. In The Book of Closeup Photography Heather Angel does the John Shaw thing better than he ever has.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
dan wrote:
Improve your technique before spending money on a better lens

Kram is not a beginner and have a lot to teach to us Very Happy
he don't need to read books, he can easily write his own



http://forum.mflenses.com/zeiss-60-2-8-s-planar-marco-new-images-t41757.html


PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Dan, thanks for your response. I appreciate it. You make some valid points.

Yes, I shoot hand-held, natural light. In the past few months I have been shooting wide open a lot. This does not mean that I will always shoot wide open.

As to my technique, please look at some of my images and judge for yourself. I don't currently have a floral macro site but here are some: http://www.flickr.com/photos/majorblack/

I adjust focus by both methods depending on need. I think I am pretty good at manual focusing and hand holding.

What I am contemplating is a better/different lens in the 100mm FL, maybe shaper, maybe with different rendering. I agree that the Nikkor-Nikkor 105/2.8 is a superb lens. That's why I asked about better lenses, as I wasn't sure if many could top it.

What I enjoy about this forum is that people like to experiment with lenses, some obscure, and share their knowledge. This is a beautiful thing! Thanks to all of you for sharing. Smile

Experimenting is a joy. I've spent my life in photography. I've been a pro since 1982. I think I've earned the right to use some of the best lenses ever made- if I can afford some. I enjoy experimenting and attempting to create unique images. I'm still striving toward this. It is my life's work and a real joy.

Love to see some of your macro work.
Smile


PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks poilu!
Laughing


PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
What do you think of this setup?

THIS

Zuiko MC 1:1 MACRO 80mm f/4.0 with the Telescopic AUTO EXTENSION TUBE 65-116 .

Smile

Cheers
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Home   Manual Focus Lenses
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3