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Best mirrorless FF camera body for MF lenses
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That sums up all topic Like Dog

memetph wrote:
Interesting discussion where we learn many new things !!
Native FE lens are made to work with Sony a7 serie sensors .
Some of those lenses are corrected by software.
Zeiss has an official cooperation with Sony.
Legacy SLR lenses works with the A7 ( there has been already serious tests made ). It is confirmed that there is almost no influence of this 2mm glass on SLR Nikon Canon lenses performance.
Uhoh7 likes Leica and finds ( or perhaps will find) the Leica SL the best camera for legacy lens.
Tb-a likes Ricoh
WV cheated everybody


PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
memetph wrote:
Interesting discussion where we learn many new things !!
Native FE lens are made to work with Sony a7 serie sensors .

As you would expect any of the OEM's to do.
Quote:
Some of those lenses are corrected by software.

It's becoming far too common these days.
Quote:
Zeiss has an official cooperation with Sony.
Legacy SLR lenses works with the A7 ( there has been already serious tests made ). It is confirmed that there is almost no influence of this 2mm glass on SLR Nikon Canon lenses performance.

I've come to the conclusion that as the exit pupil becomes further from the sensor, the thickness of the cover glass/Lowpass filter will have less effect on IQ.
Quote:
Uhoh7 likes Leica and finds ( or perhaps will find) the Leica SL the best camera for legacy lens.
Tb-a likes Ricoh
WV cheated everybody

VW, not WV Wink they really did it to themselves with this one.


PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, at this moment I think the Leica SL is the best legacy platform ever made, but needs some more dumb adapters. Nikon already available.

No, I can't afford one, and probably will never own one Sad I would also like a Leica S 007.

If anyone thinks the stock A7 sensor is "fine' with SLR glass, they just have not done much comparison. The troubles do vary, of course.

I have a nFD 24/2. Very famous lens. Terrible on A7r, A7. Superb on Kolari. Last I looked this is a SLR lens, and not a tiny one, or old design. Any who wants to shoot the stock sensor, that's your choice. But don't think the Kolari is not superior for any film lens. It is.

You don't have to care. But lots of innocent people come to these threads looking for "the truth". We should respect them and say what seems to be the real case. Or that we have not compared, don't really know, but "it's just good enough".

My honest belief is the Kolari is far better for general legacy use than the stock sensor. This from tens of thousands of frames on many lenses SLR and RF both with and without the mod.

Last edited by uhoh7 on Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
memetph wrote:
Interesting discussion where we learn many new things !!

Tb-a likes Ricoh


This is not new at all!


PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
uhoh7 wrote:
Yes, at this moment I think the Leica SL is the best legacy platform ever made, but needs some more dumb adapters. Nikon already available.


Most probably. At least for FF.

As there is an original adapter for Leica-M already available, most of the legacy lenses are already usable. For Leica-M almost every lens is adaptable with very rare exceptions.

However, it's also slightly above my budget for the time being. Wink


PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
guardian wrote:

So I'm wondering:

Are camera body manufacturers fooling with the computers in their camera bodies, or messing with their proprietary software, to enhance photographic results with their own (expensive) lenses while harming outcomes for those of us with a preference for (vintage or non-vintage) MF lenses? Obviously I dunno.


Obviously this is the case with certain camera manufacturers. However, there are only few camera manufacturers who really care about other brand and/or legacy lenses. So just if you are able to use a lens on a certain camera doesn't necessarily mean that this camera is able to cope with that particular lens like we see with RF lenses on Sony A7 models.

Actually the only camera which is really designed and optimized for RF lenses of all brands and angles is the Ricoh GXR-M as Ricoh don't even supply lenses for that M-module nowadays. Unfortunately (for you) it's only APS-C. I can easily live with that limitation as it also has the advantage to use the better center of FF lenses and the CV 12mm lens is wide enough even on the smaller sensor (18mm FF equivalence). I just bought a brand new spare M-module for that camera this week to be on the safe side for the future. Wink And I have additionally a FF camera with many compatible lenses anyway.

However, as we are talking about FF cameras here, there is actually only the new Leica SL model which is really designed to cope also with the old lenses including the RF ones.

Most of the manufacturers are logically interested to sell their own lenses for the use with their cameras. That's understandable.

So either you are looking for a special camera or you have to live with compromises one way or another. On FF mirrorless there is not really much choice. Actually there is realistically only the Sony A7 series with the known limitations if money plays a role. That's the present situation.


PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Edited

Last edited by bernhardas on Tue May 10, 2016 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
bernhardas wrote:

I use some Zeiss ZF lenses on nikon d800/810 and on Sony A7r. In my and my non-photography friends opinion pictures from the Sony look "better".


How they look at the end of your workflow I cannot judge, though I would love to see samples Smile

However in terms of pure performance the D810 should beat the stock A7r at infinity with your ZF lenses, when viewed closely at infinity across the frame, though the Sony centers will be great.

Also your Nikon RAWS are far superior to the Sony compressed and cooked RAWS. So I would play with Camera Profiles in Lightroom, and look for custom ones online. You should be able to get what ever "look" you want with the same lens and the Nikon.

I have LR workflow to the point where I actually confuse the A7.mod output with my M9. But that took some practice. Very fast when you start with the right profile, however. But light is a real factor. Sony skies are very difficult, and in some cases, nothing I do will get the overall WB "look" to something like my M9 makes, which I enjoy.

Here is a fantastic thread on general lens manufacture and testing issues, which just started:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1394564

Also for macro lovers, don't miss:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1394720
Where I learned about the Coastal Optics UV-VIS-NIR 4/60 Smile
http://www.jenoptik-inc.com/coastalopt-standard-lenses/uv-vis-nir-60mm-slr-lens-mainmenu-155/80-uv-vis-ir-60-mm-apo-macro.html
So cheap, I imagine Ian will get three Wink


PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Edited

Last edited by bernhardas on Tue May 10, 2016 5:08 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
uhoh7 wrote:
Yes, at this moment I think the Leica SL is the best legacy platform ever made...


you say 'you think' and 'I think' that you may be right, in other places users simply state this as a fact.
I wonder, is it founded on already available samples, or faith because one can also use it for M lenses?


PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
bernhardas wrote:
Or somehow I am suddenly a "better" photographer with Sony?
Smile Smile Smile

Unfortunately I can not post pictures taken during internal events of my office.

Considering the Sony/Zeiss cooperation it is a possibility that Sony engineers make an effort so that certain Zeiss lenses look good.
The software technology is definitely at a point where that is in the realm of the possible.


Nobody can make difference between the compressed and uncompressed raws in real life. I think some people should not think too much.


PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
I have LR workflow to the point where I actually confuse the A7.mod output with my M9


Try Capture One workflow, much less to it - to some degree.


PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kuuan wrote:
uhoh7 wrote:
Yes, at this moment I think the Leica SL is the best legacy platform ever made...


you say 'you think' and 'I think' that you may be right, in other places users simply state this as a fact.
I wonder, is it founded on already available samples, or faith because one can also use it for M lenses?


It's already tested here: http://www.reidreviews.com/
However, my subscription already expired and I don't want to renew it just for that test. Wink


PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
It's already tested here: http://www.reidreviews.com/


I won't say any more than - that is not exactly the conclusion that he came to. Smile

Last edited by meanwhile on Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:48 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
memetph wrote:

Nobody can make difference between the compressed and uncompressed raws in real life. I think some people should not think too much.


That may be true. However, did you see the comparisons showing the compression artifacts of the Sony process yet? There are certainly visible differences if you want to find them.
So for pixel peepers it may be a deciding factor whether to go for compressed or uncompressed RAW if you are looking for the last reserves of your very expensive high standard lenses.

BTW, reminds me somehow on the discussions betw. lossy and loss-less audio. Wink


PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think the A7 or A7II with Kolari thin filter mod is the best option available.
Takes all lenses, many adapters available, rather inexpensive and FF.


I'd highly recommend the mod as it does improve some old wides and the RF lenses.


Here is an example between an unmodded and modded A7.

Pentax SMC K24/2.8

Full Image

A7_standard Pentax K24 f2.8 at f10 by jenkwang, on Flickr


Center Crop

A7_standard Pentax K24 f2.8 at f10-center by jenkwang, on Flickr


A7K Pentax K24 f2.8 at f10-center by jenkwang, on Flickr


PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Left Crop

A7_standard Pentax K24 f2.8 at f10-left by jenkwang, on Flickr


A7K Pentax K24 f2.8 at f10-left by jenkwang, on Flickr


Right Crop

A7_standard Pentax K24 f2.8 at f10-right by jenkwang, on Flickr



A7K Pentax K24 f2.8 at f10-right by jenkwang, on Flickr


PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Showing the potential of thin filter and no AA filter.

Just click on picts and get the full sized file.


Canon ltm 50/1.4 at f5.6
20151025-DSC06862-1 by jenkwang, on Flickr


Pentax K28/3.5 at f8
Constructing the urban future by jenkwang, on Flickr


PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kuuan wrote:
uhoh7 wrote:
Yes, at this moment I think the Leica SL is the best legacy platform ever made...


you say 'you think' and 'I think' that you may be right, in other places users simply state this as a fact.
I wonder, is it founded on already available samples, or faith because one can also use it for M lenses?


For legacy M and LTM, the M9 is probably the best. I'll be surprised if the Leica SL beats the M9 or M240 on the edges or in the deep corners. However, it is still way ahead of the stock A7 and likely better than A7.mod

But you don't often shoot SLR lenses on the M9 or 240 for a host of reasons. The new SL will be great for this, once more adapters come out.
Already it can shoot Nikon and Leica R.

So when i say it's the best legacy platform, I mean: it can shoot practically everything well. From rangefinder wides (at least the tamer ones) to a Nikon 500/4 P

It has a wider mount for less reflection, shading and better lens support, than the Sony E mount.

As to the files, I work with Sony and Leica RAWS everyday. The Sony RAWS are a joke compared to the Leica RAWS when used in lightroom. Adjustments are far more destructive and far less effective.

Why gloss over this fact? It's a scandal. Finally they are changing the files, but only in the latest models.


PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
From Leica website:
http://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-SL/Details

Price is $7450 and will be available Nov 16, 2015.


Seven and a half grand disqualifies it from consideration for most people.


PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It is clear that removing the AA filter gives more crispy images. Nothing new , thousands examples by Nikon and Pentax with the option with or without.
Buy directly an A7r I or II which has no AA filter. Thanks to the original sensor you will get the best from your FE lens and from your SLR legacy lenses.
I don't see any advantage with this mod on a A7 unless you want to use RF lenses and no FE lenses.


PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, I would send in my A7 II soon for a filter replacement for sure. I have to many nice old RF lenses around. Wink


PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Quote:
From Leica website:
http://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-SL/Details

Price is $7450 and will be available Nov 16, 2015.


Seven and a half grand disqualifies it from consideration for most people.


It certainly disqualifies it for me, but that won't stop me me appreciating what it is and likely can do. The A7r2 is now over three grand, and that is shocking. Based on the raw cost, I think Sony is gouging worse than Leica. LOL

But 7500 would not get me the camera I'd really like: the Leica S and several lenses. The size of a D810, well close, and some fantastic lenses, which will all work on the SL too, when the AF adapter is ready next year.

Last edited by uhoh7 on Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:04 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
uhoh7, I have respect for your photography and your experience, but this constant baiting of Ian with anti-Zeiss stuff is beneath you. Why bother?


PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
meanwhile wrote:
uhoh7, I have respect for your photography and your experience, but this constant baiting of Ian with anti-Zeiss stuff is beneath you. Why bother?


Was not even thinking that way, but have done as requested Smile

I love my ZM18 and ZM35/2. Not to mention my precious 1937 CZJ 50/1.5 Smile Quite a few other lenses.

I try to admire the great and ridicule the lame, regardless of L, Z or S Wink

Leica has chosen to make a new camera. Zeiss has given up making any. If nobody gives them a hard time, how do they know we care?

The SL is right in their face really. Make a nice FF body, EVIL, with good quality and about the size of the A7. A Zeiss mirrorless FF. They could sell plenty. Smile Instead they make lenses for Sony E with high copy variation. Somebody should tell the truth, no? Ian has nothing to do with those facts, he just hates Leica. Separate issue.

ohhh, there I go again Smile

To be fair Zeiss also just introduced the ZM35/1.4, which is a great lens and the quality seems fine. A complex picture. And Leica puts their name on some silly crop cameras, too. Smile
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