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A Word about Russian Serial Numbers
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Don't believe the hype about the serial numbers. Zeros at the start just indicate a preseries.


Please state sources and evidence.


PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here is one of mine Wink


PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
A very nice lens Nordentro!


PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:58 am    Post subject: Re: A Word about Russian Serial Numbers Reply with quote
themoleman342 wrote:
After reading through a great deal of the previous posts I noticed that there was a little discussion over the serial numbers of Russian lenses that start with 0, 00, or 000. As part of the yahoo zenit camera group we've come around to this topic more than once. I didn't know if anyone knew what they really meant so these were our findings. Alain Berry, a French ZCG group member gave these insights (translated by Martin Luerkens - another ZCG member):

000xxxxxx factory test (study) models (prototypes etc) mod?les d'études
d'usine (prototypes etc..)
00xxxxxx preseries models reserved for members of the communist party
and "VIPs" (reservés aux membres du parti communist et haut
responsables en pré-série)
0xxxxxx reserved for factory syndicat leaders (réservés aux
responsables syndicaux d'usines)

They are in fact all pre-production models. They are generally considered higher quality optics due to the fact that there is stricter quality control (which is disputed among Russian gear), they are produced in lower numbers with greater care, and they are not presented to the general public. A great many members, with multiple copies of the helios 44-2, have invariably found the best to be the one with the 0xxxxx serial number. Whether there is really any difference between which pre-production model is the better has yet to be tested.

I always look for the lenses with pre-production serial numbers because there’s that chance that they might be better than those of mass-production lines.

Anyways I hope this was of some value
~Marc


I now have good reason to doubt this information is correct.

I have been looking closely at the Helios 44s for sale on ebay UK in the last month and to my surprise, a good number of them are either 00 or 04 serials numbers, the odd 05 turns up too. In the last two weeks I have seen no less than six 00s and nine 04s, they are all the shiny black variety and KMZ made. I have purchased three 04s and a 00, I already had a 00 and I have tested them. Both 00s are a good deal better than other 44s, the 04s however are nothing special, I have three 1970s Helios 44s to compare to them and the differences were very small and nothing you wouldn't call normal variation between copies.

So if this info about being reserved for party members and VIPs and being pre-production is accurate, then why is the UK awash with them?

I think the simple answer is this info is wrong and the existence of these lenses in quantity is proof of that.

I've also been looking at other Russian lenses for sale on ebay UK and quite a few with a serial beginning in 0 turn up, I've seen at least 5 Jupiter-8s with a serial starting in 0, they all looked like late 50s/early 60s models.

Here's one of the Helios I bought with a 04 serial, this one is a 44, I have an identical one with a 04 serial that is marked 44-2.

I compared these two lenses and the differences in IQ were miniscule.





PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here's another 00 serial about to end:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Zenit-E-35mm-Helios-44-2-58mm-F2-0-Zenit-leather-case-/150848837843?pt=UK_Photography_VintagePhotography_VintagePhotoAccessories&hash=item231f4a98d3#ht_500wt_1413


PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sorry Ian,
In your first pictures, I don't see the 44-2 as a 04 serial number but 73.
In the bay ad, I don't manage to read any serial number in the picture.
Smile


PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi Olivier

Look at the lens on the left, it is a Helios-44, KMZ made, shiny black finish with 04 serial number. The one on the right is in the dull grayish black finish and is a 44-2 with a 73 serial.

I asked the seller what the serial number was of that lens as it looked like a 00 to me and he confirmed it was.

I didn't save links to all the other auctions of 00 and 04 lenses but as I said, there have been many of them.

One other thing, if these 00 and 04 lenses were made for party officials, VIPs etc, why do they all have Latin script rather than Cyrillic? They also all have 'made in USSR' on them, which suggests they were made for export.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, if they were indeed made for export, then there is a good chance that they had better quality control: that was another craziness of the Soviet system.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
that is something Nordentro! Congrats!


PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
This is what an ukrainian living near Kiev Arsenal tells me when I asked him 2 hours ago :

Most Soviet cameras lenses have first two digits as year of production. However it's not a common rule, for example FED uses sequentially numbered serials. However no special numbers for test models or reservation models. Test models usually didn't have any numbers at all, or as marked as Nr.1, Nr.2 - but instead of mass-production cameras / lenses, these numbers were engraved manually. Nobody never specially marked any VIP cameras, cameras which were presented to VIPs were regular cameras but additionally checked / adjusted manually. Technicians took let's say 50 LOMO cameras, tested all 50 and selected the best one, then additionally re-checked and re-adjusted it, that's all. Serial was "as is".

Kiev lenses / cameras. Till 1991 they marked all lenses and cameras in more common way, with two first digits as year of production plus 4..5 digits serial (so lenses made at the beginning of 1987 had numbers 870001, 870002, ... 870068 and at the end of the year 879642 etc.). After 1991 Kiev Arsenal rebranded all lenses (30mm Zodiak-8, 45mm Mir-26, 250mm Jupiter-36, 150mm Kaleinar-5 etc.) to Arsat 30mm, Arsat 45mm, Arsat 250mm, Arsat 150mm and started numeration from zero - in the earlier 90's all lenses had numbers like 000015, 000138, ... - starting with 5/4/3 "0" - but all these lenses / cameras were regular lenses / cameras, not specially designed or reserved for somebody!

All Tair, MTO, and ZM lenses with 'GRAND PRIX Brussels 58' engraving have 6-digit serials started from 000001. Mir-1 lenses produced before 1964 have the same serials, started from 000001, and after 1964 Mir-1 'GRAND PRIX Brussels 58' lenses have numbers started from YY00001 (where YY means year of production).

It sounds true.
My Taïr-3A Brussels Grand Prix 1958 is n° 003034" and has absolutely no cyrillic letters. As Ian said, it's astonishing.
I believe what our ukrainian friend says. Smile


PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That does sound correct.

I suspect that the two 04 serial Helioses I have are from the 1970s, I think the 00s I have are too.

Seems to me if the Helios has a shiny black finish it has a 00 or 04, 05 etc serial, if it has the dull grayish black finish it has the year of manufacture, eg. 73, 77.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Olivier wrote:
This is what an ukrainian living near Kiev Arsenal tells me when I asked him 2 hours ago :

Most Soviet cameras lenses have first two digits as year of production. However it's not a common rule, for example FED uses sequentially numbered serials. However no special numbers for test models or reservation models. Test models usually didn't have any numbers at all, or as marked as Nr.1, Nr.2 - but instead of mass-production cameras / lenses, these numbers were engraved manually. Nobody never specially marked any VIP cameras, cameras which were presented to VIPs were regular cameras but additionally checked / adjusted manually. Technicians took let's say 50 LOMO cameras, tested all 50 and selected the best one, then additionally re-checked and re-adjusted it, that's all. Serial was "as is".

Kiev lenses / cameras. Till 1991 they marked all lenses and cameras in more common way, with two first digits as year of production plus 4..5 digits serial (so lenses made at the beginning of 1987 had numbers 870001, 870002, ... 870068 and at the end of the year 879642 etc.). After 1991 Kiev Arsenal rebranded all lenses (30mm Zodiak-8, 45mm Mir-26, 250mm Jupiter-36, 150mm Kaleinar-5 etc.) to Arsat 30mm, Arsat 45mm, Arsat 250mm, Arsat 150mm and started numeration from zero - in the earlier 90's all lenses had numbers like 000015, 000138, ... - starting with 5/4/3 "0" - but all these lenses / cameras were regular lenses / cameras, not specially designed or reserved for somebody!

All Tair, MTO, and ZM lenses with 'GRAND PRIX Brussels 58' engraving have 6-digit serials started from 000001. Mir-1 lenses produced before 1964 have the same serials, started from 000001, and after 1964 Mir-1 'GRAND PRIX Brussels 58' lenses have numbers started from YY00001 (where YY means year of production).

It sounds true.
My Taïr-3A Brussels Grand Prix 1958 is n° 003034" and has absolutely no cyrillic letters. As Ian said, it's astonishing.
I believe what our ukrainian friend says. Smile


+1 I believe in this too and well fit into this special lenses also with 00, but no common rule of course for all type of lenses and makers.


PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I agree with Attila. The 00 serial Helios 44-2 I have is a special lens, far better than any other Helios I've tried, made by KMZ. It's also better than my CZJ T Biotar 2/58.

Both my 04 serials are Helios 44s made by KMZ. I need to test these two more extensively than I have but initial tests suggest they are very good but perhaps not better than the 73 serial 44-2 I have from a different factory that I tried at the same time.

Here's a 05 serial KMZ 44-2 on ebay:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/120944595641?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_799wt_1396

Why there are so many 0 and 00 Helios 44s on ebay UK is a bit of a mystery, but nice that they are available in quantity. Smile

I haven't noticed a later Helios with an 00 or 04 serial, they are all 44s and 44-2s in the shiny black finish. The 44-3 is rare in the UK, the 44M and 44M-4 are common, then the 44-5, 44-6 and 44-7 are all rare. It's harder to find out the serial number of the 44Ms and 44M-4s as it's not clearly printed in white on the front like with the 44s and 44-2s.

It would be nice if someone can find out what the case is with these shiny black KMZ 44s and 44-2s with 0 and 00 serials, why they are numbered this way instead of having the year of manufacture and why there are so many of them in the UK.


PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ah'm surprised that no-one has referenced the exhaustive thread "A complete list of helios lenses-getting closer" begun by no-X.


In it he comments that he isn't really sure if the theory of 000,00,0 for prototypes, politics and factory leader is correct but that it's not correct for pre-1970 Helios lenses which were all routinely marked with zero numbers.

Ah have an M39 Helios 44 (siver) 13 blades with a 00 s/n. Built in 1961, provenance is on pg.7 of the complete list thread thread which ends at least one argument ( that all KMZ M39 lenses have the first two digits denoting the year of manufacture).
Cool

http://forum.mflenses.com/complete-list-of-helios-lenses-getting-closer-t26100.html


PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
fermy wrote:
Well, if they were indeed made for export, then there is a good chance that they had better quality control: that was another craziness of the Soviet system.

Fermy, I think we put that discussion to bed a while ago. Whether or not the Soviet manufacturers had any QC, exported lenses and cameras were individually inspected, calibrated and adjusted by the foreign distributor before going on sale. In the UK and Holland this was a company called Technical Optical Equipment Ltd (TOE). Any that failed their inspection were sent back to USSR - hence only the better quality examples, tested and adjusted, finally made it to the west.


PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Peter,

export things had more stringent QC compared to exactly the same items for internal consumption irrespective of QC performed by the importer. That was standard for Soviet production and not specific to cameras/lenses.


PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
TAo2 wrote:
Ah'm surprised that no-one has referenced the exhaustive thread "A complete list of helios lenses-getting closer" begun by no-X.


In it he comments that he isn't really sure if the theory of 000,00,0 for prototypes, politics and factory leader is correct but that it's not correct for pre-1970 Helios lenses which were all routinely marked with zero numbers.

Ah have an M39 Helios 44 (siver) 13 blades with a 00 s/n. Built in 1961, provenance is on pg.7 of the complete list thread thread which ends at least one argument ( that all KMZ M39 lenses have the first two digits denoting the year of manufacture).
Cool

http://forum.mflenses.com/complete-list-of-helios-lenses-getting-closer-t26100.html


Interesting, so all these 04, 05, 10, Helios 44s and 44-2s I keep seeing must be 1960s ones. Makes sense because I haven't seen one with a 6X serial but ones with 7X serials abound.

I have seen a couple of M39 silver Helios 44s with 00 serial.

The 00 Helios 44-2 I have is a wonderful lens, better than nay other Helios 44 I've tried (a dozen at least) by a wide margin. Maybe it's just a lucky copy or maybe 00 does denote something where this one is concerned.

Yes TOE did do their own QC, but as fermy says, the export versions do have better QC to begin with, same is true of the GDR lenses.


PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Yes TOE did do their own QC, but as fermy says, the export versions do have better QC to begin with, same is true of the GDR lenses.


So, taking this logic a bit further, maybe the "hit or miss" reputation of Helios lenses is due to the growth in sales on eb*y (and elsewhere) originating in Russia.


PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
themoleman342 wrote:
Quote:
Don't believe the hype about the serial numbers. Zeros at the start just indicate a preseries.


Please state sources and evidence.
The source was Zoom that posts on the USSR photo forum and used to work at KMZ. 0s are just preseries.

To be honest, I doubt there's anything written to back up either of these theories, but I'm inclined to believe Zoom, as otherwise, there's too many reserved lenses around.

I have a preseries 44-2 which isn't as good as my regular 44-2.


PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi Ian,

Ah also have a black+white, Helios 44-2 (KMZ) with s/n N00(56xxx). Like you, ah agree that they are superior to others in my collection. Apart from a small difference in lens coating and slightly different bevelling on the focus ring, it is identical to my Helios 44. Same black-enamelling, engraving and colouring. The 44 is N044xxx.

Cool


PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
skida wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Yes TOE did do their own QC, but as fermy says, the export versions do have better QC to begin with, same is true of the GDR lenses.


So, taking this logic a bit further, maybe the "hit or miss" reputation of Helios lenses is due to the growth in sales on eb*y (and elsewhere) originating in Russia.


Perhaps, but I have to say, I've never had a Helios that wasn't good, or any Russian lens that wasn't good, in fact, most are excellent. I tend to think the so-so reputation is more to do with the fact they were lower price items and people didn't respect them and look after them. The life they have led is a huge factor in how they perform today.

TAo2 wrote:
Hi Ian,

Ah also have a black+white, Helios 44-2 (KMZ) with s/n N00(56xxx). Like you, ah agree that they are superior to others in my collection. Apart from a small difference in lens coating and slightly different bevelling on the focus ring, it is identical to my Helios 44. Same black-enamelling, engraving and colouring. The 44 is N044xxx.

Cool


Hi TAo2

Yes. that is how mine are, the 44s with 04 serials don't have any coloured coating visible whereas the 44-2 00 serial has a faint pink/purple colouring.


PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
I've never had a Helios that wasn't good, or any Russian lens that wasn't good, in fact, most are excellent. I tend to think the so-so reputation is more to do with the fact they were lower price items and people didn't respect them and look after them.


I have owned 5 or 6 various model Helios 44s and my experience has been the same as yours and statistically one of us should have had a bad'n by now, so I suspect the QC is no better or worse than most major manufacturers. Of course, the only science I have applied in testing is looking at the photos with my own eyes - if it looks good, it is good.


PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
My God, someone who uses his eyes to judge! Hehe, that's, imho, the way to do it and MTF charts and other statistics aren't very meaningful when it comes to judging whether you like the results from a lens or not Smile


PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
... but I have to say, I've never had a Helios that wasn't good, or any Russian lens that wasn't good, in fact, most are excellent. I tend to think the so-so reputation is more to do with the fact they were lower price items and people didn't respect them and look after them. The life they have led is a huge factor in how they perform today.



I'm not so sure, Ian. Granted, I've never had any FSU lenses for small format, but my former Industar-51 (210/4.5 tessar type designed in 1937) was pretty poor. In good condition, too, pretty coating, with no obvious signs of abuse. It passed light, formed an image, and that's all.

Cheers,

Dan


PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm sure there will be some lemons, but I also think they are less common than some people say. Out of 20-odd Russkies I've only had very good or excellent copies.

I've never seen an unsharp Tessar, pretty simple lens to make, I wonder if a technician overhauled it if it would become a good performer? There are reports of Russian lenses that were improperly assembled and technicians being able to transform their performance simply by correcting the assembly issue. A Mir-26B with an improperly inserted spacer comes to mind, it was overhauled and became a great performer.
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