Why are there so few "cheapo" 85mm lenses?

[pst]

Looking trough the "sales" corner on some photo forum I found a lot of M42 lenses. In it there was a 35mm, two 135mm and a 200mm lens. All "no-name", well at least nothing I had ever heard of.

...It came to me; Why are there hardly any cheapo 85mm lenses. Like all those rebranded no-name lenses. You can find plenty in 28, 35, 50, 135 and also 200. But where are the 85s?
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Regards, Patrick.

[Sirrith]

Quite a good question, I've often wondered that myself... Seems like the 85's are some of the most expensive I've seen in fact.

[WolverineX]

my guess is that 85mm was usual focal length for portraits, so lens makers made those lenses extra quality lenses, hence higher price tag
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my tools:Oly E-M5 + 45mm/1.8 + Oly E-520 + 12-60 + 14-42 + 70-300 + Sigma 105mm + FL-50R + EC20 + SRF-11 ring flash

OM lenses: 24mm/2.8, 28mm/3.5, 35mm/2 , 50mm/1.8, 50mm/1.4, 50mm/3.5 macro, 50mm/2 macro , 90mm/2 macro , 55mm/1.2 ,100mm/2.8 ,135mm/2.8,135mm/3.5,200mm/5, 75-150mm/4 , 500mm/8 reflex , 35-70mm/3.6, 35-70mm/4, 85-250mm/5 , 100-200mm/5 ,Soligor OM 28-80mm/3.5-4.5 , RMC Tokina 80-200mm/4 , Osawa 28mm/2.8 , Vivitar 28mm/2.8 , Vivitar Series 1 70-210mm/3.5 (kiron) , Sigma 24mm/2.8 , Sigma 8mm/4 fisheye , Sigma 300mm/2, Vivitar 90mm/2.8 , Panagor 55mm/2.8 , Tamron SP 90mm/2.5 , Tamron SP 28-80mm/3.5-4-2
m42 lenses : Pancolar 50mm/1.8, Fujinon EBC 55mm/3.5 macro , Tomioka Yashinon 60mm/2.8,Pentacon 29mm/2.8, Pentacon 50mm/1.8, Pentacon auto 100mm/2.8, Pentacon auto 200mm/4 , Helios-44-2 58mm/2 , Samyang 500mm/8, Industar-50-2 50mm/3,5 , tair3-phs 300mm/4.5 , aus Jena 50mm/2.8, Helios 44M-4 58mm/2, Helios 44 58mm/2 , Jupiter-21M 200mm/4 , Mir-1W 37mm/2.8, Industar 61 L/Z 50mm/2.8 ,Helios 40-2 85mm/1.5, Tair 11a 135mm/2.8 , Meyer-Optik Goerlitz Primotar 135mm/3.5, Jupiter37a/3.5, Volna-9 50mm/2.8, Super Macro Takumar 50mm/4, Macro Takumar 50/4, Sirius 18-28mm/4-4.5 , CZJ Tessar 50mm/2.8 , Fujinon 55mm/1.8 , Super Carenar 35mm/2.8 , Cosinon 50mm/2.8 (several 2x converters , macro bellows ) , Soligor 135mm/2
pentacon six lens: czj Flektogon 50mm/4 , Biometar 80mm/2.8 (x2) , czj Sonnar 180mm/2.8
minolta md lens: minolta md 24mm/2.8 VFC , 35-70mm/3.5 , mc rokkor 35mm/2.8, macro rokkor qf 50mm/3.5 , rokkor-x 50mm/1.4, MD tele rokkor 135mm/3.5, tele rokkor 300mm/5.6 , minolta 35-105mm/3.5-4.5 , MD zoom 70-210mm/4.5-5.6, Tokina AT-X 90mm/2.5 , Tokina AT-X 80-200mm/2.8 , sigma 100mm/2.8 , Vivitar series 1 35-85mm/2.8 , Kiron 28mm/2 , Panagor 28mm/2.5 , Tamron 85-210mm/4.5 ,
pentax k lens:SMC pentax-m 50mm/1.4 , SMC pentax-m 100mm/4 macro
nikon manual lenses: Maginon 100-500mm/5.6-7.1, Kiron 105mm/2.8, Tokina AT-X 50-250mm/4-5.6 ,Tokina AT-X 35-70mm/2.8 , Micro-Nikkor 55mm/3.5 , Micro-Nikkor 105mm/2.8 , Micro-Nikkor 200mm/4 , Nikkor 28mm/2.8 AiS , Soligor 200mm/2.8 ,Nikkor 20mm/4, RMC Tokina 17mm/3.5, Tamron 28-50mm/3.5-4.5, zoom Nikkor 35-105mm/3.5-4.5/ El-Nikkors: 50mm/2.8 , 80mm/5.6
Canon FD lenses:Makinon 35-70 , Canon 135mm/2.8 , Canon 70-150mm/4.5 , Canon 50mm/1.4 s.s.c., Canon 50mm/1.8
Konica AR lenses: Hexanon 28mm/3.5, Hexanon 40mm/1.8 ,Hexanon 50mm/1.7, Hexanon 52mm/1.8 , Hexar 135mm/3.5, Hexanon 135mm/3.2 , Hexanon 200mm/3.5
m39 lenses: silver Jupiter-9 85mm/2 , Jupiter 8 50mm/2 , Industar 61 L/D 52mm/2.8

[ManualFocus-G]

Plus they are usually fast, and non-50mm fast lenses are expensive regardless
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Graham - Moderator

Shooting things: Canon EOS 6D and 5D, Samsung NX11 with Carl Zeiss T*

See my Flickr photos at http://www.flickr.com/photos/manualfocus-g

[RTI]

85ish and 100mm are quite expensive focal lengths, as it has been mentioned, being mostly portrait lenses - suitable both for FF and APSC form factors. 135mm is kinda more tele on 1.5 crop, a 50 "nifty-fifty" being a normal lens on FF and AFAIK isn't a proper portrait lens even on a cropped body, having some perspective distortions.
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Cameras: Alpha SLT-A77, A850, Zorki-4, Canon AE-1
MF: Rokkor MC 58/1.4, M39 Jupiter-9 (silver 1955), Jupiter-8, M42 Jupiter-9, Canon FD 35mm f2 SSC, Oly G Zuiko 50/1.4
AF: Minolta AF 50/1.4, 35-70/4, 70-210/4, 28/2.8, 28-135/4-4.5,

[luisalegria]

50 is 75mm on a crop body, and looks perfectly fine as a portrait lens as far as I can see.
Zeiss sold their Biotar 75/1.5 as a portrait lens after all.

Lots of 55mm and 58mm lenses around too, and the equivalent focal length is that much more - 82.5 or 87mm is right in 35mm portrait lens territory.

The only problem is that you need more aperture for the same DOF, if thats an issue. You need roughly an f/1.2 55mm on APS-C to match the DOF of an 85mm f/2 on 35mm.

My guess on the lack of cheapo portrait lenses is that its hard and expensive to make a decently performing one with sufficient aperture to be attractive. 135/2.8 is easy to make, good ones can have just 4 elements.
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I like Pentax DSLR's, Exaktas, M42 bodies of all kinds, strange and cheap Japanese lenses, and am dabbling in medium format/Speed Graphic work.

[iangreenhalgh1]

I think it is, as Luis says, cost to produce.

Most makes made 135mm lenses with both 3.5 and 2.8 speeds, the 3.5s are often 4 element tele-tessar types, the 2.8s are usually 5 element Sonnar types.

The Sonnar design is not cheap to produce.

Thinking of 85mm lenses, there was the Triotar 4/85 which is a triplet, and then the Sonnar 2/85 which is 5 elements, the Sonnar would have cost a lot more to produce. I know the 2/85 Sonnar is a superb portrait lens, don't know about the Triotar, it's a sharp lens with little distortion even at f4, but how it's rendering works for portraits I have no idea.
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'The question I would really consider (especially if an amateur and on a budget) is whether or not anyone (including yourself, of course) can tell the difference in any situation for which you will use the lens...and if they can, why are they burying their noses in your prints hard enough to tell the difference instead of responding to the prints emotionally and thinking about what they might mean?' - 2F/2F on apug.org

Digital: Sony NEX-3, Samsung NX100, Canon EOS 450d
35mm SLR: Konica FT-1, Konica FC-1, Konica Autoreflex T, Carena SRH760, Exakta RTL1000, Canon EOS 10qd
35mm VF: Olympus Stylus, Konica C35, Konica A4, Konica MG, Konica MT-9, Ricoh FF-9, Ricoh AF-80
35mm RF: Zorki 6, Kiev II, Kiev IV, Contax IIIa, CZJ Werra III,
Medium format: Franka Rolfix, Mess Ikonta 524/16, Voigtlander Bessa with Skopar 3.5/105, Voigtlander Bessa with Voigtar 3.5/105, Kiev 6C, Century Graphic 23, Ensign Selfix 820, Kershaw 450
MF lenses: Schneider Angulon 6.5/68, Componon-S 5.6/100, C-Claron 4.5/135, Xenar 3.5/105, Mamiya C 2.8/45, Mamiya 2.8/80, CZJ Flektogon 4/50, Biometar 2.8/80, Zodiac 3.5/30, Tominon 4.5/135, Pullin Pulnar 2.8/100
Large Format: Ernemann HEAG Series VII version II 9x12 with Kodak Anastigmat 6.3/170
Konica Hexanons 4/21, 2.8/24, 3.5/28, 2.8/35, 1.8/40, 1.4/50, 1.7/50, 1.8/50, 3.2/135, 3.5/135, 3.5/200, 4.5/300, 3.5-4.5/35-70, 4-4.6/28-135, 3.5/35-70, UC 3.5/45-100, 4/70-150, 4/65-135, UC 4/80-200. Hexars 3.5/28, 3.5/135, Konishiroku 2.8/35
Carl Zeiss Jena Flektogon 2.8/35, Skoparex 3.4/35, Tessar 2.8/50, Sonnar 1.5/50, Biotar 2/58, Pancolar 1.8/50, Cardinar 4/100, Zeiss-Opton Biogon 2.8/35
Meyer/Pentacons 2.8/28, Primagon 4.5/35, Trioplan 2.9/50, 1.8/50, 2.4/50, Primotar 3.5/50, Primotar 3.5/135
Topcon RE Auto Topcors 1.8/58, 3.5/135, 5.6/200
Russians: OKC1-18-1 2.8/18, OKC1-28-1 2.8/28, Jupiter-12 2.8/35, Jupiter-8 2/50, Industar-50 3.5/50, Industar-26M 2.8/50, Industar-22 3.5/50, Zenitar M2S 2/50, Helios-44-2, Jupiter-9 2/85, Jupiter-11 4/135, Tair-3C 4.5/300
Tokina 3.5/17, Nikon Auto Nikkor-N 2.8/24, Nikon Micro-Nikkor-P 3.5/55, Ross Xpress 3.5/4in, Ross Xpress 4/5in, Ross Xpress 4.5/8.5in, Wollensak APO-Raptar 10/541

[luisalegria]

AFAIK, all the 135/2.8's (and 135/3.5's) I've disassembled had 4 elements.

Even some quality ones like the Nikkor-Q only had 4 elements - I've had one apart recently.

Maybe the more expensive ones had five (maybe also the Takumars, etc.), but I only work on the cheap stuff.
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I like Pentax DSLR's, Exaktas, M42 bodies of all kinds, strange and cheap Japanese lenses, and am dabbling in medium format/Speed Graphic work.

[visualopsins]

I want to know which 135/2.8 are Sonnar!

Let's remember in the 85mm range are the 90/2.5 macro lenses (Tamron, Vivitar, etc.) which make great FF portrait lenses.
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Cameras: Canon 5Dc, Spotmatics II, F, ESII, Pentax 6x7

Lenses: S-M-C Takumars 17-500mm (18 lenses), S-M-C Macro-Takumars 50 & 100mm, S-M-C Bellows Takumar, Macro-Takumar 50/4 1:1, S-M-C Takumars/6x7 55-200mm (7 lenses)

[mo]

Having just bought a SP Tamron 90/2.5 my first lens in that range.I can see why they are expensive...however I did pick mine up for under $90au.I certainly won't be letting this lens go...maybe that's why there are not a lot out there as they are just kept by the original owners?
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Moira, Moderator
Pentax K200D,Pentax MX
Ricoh Singlex TLS,KR-5,KR-5Super,XR-10
Lenses
Auto Rikenon's 55/1.4, 1.8, 2.8... 50/1.7 Super Takumar 1.8/55...Macro Takumar F4/50... CZJ Biotar ALU M42 2/58 CZJ Tessar ALU M42 2/50CZJ DDR Flektogon Zebra M42 2.8/35
Auto Mamiya/Sekor 1.8/55 ...Auto Mamiya/Sekor 2/50 Auto Mamiya/Sekor 200/3.5 Tamron SP500/8

[F16SUNSHINE]

Hey nice pick up Mo. I've never heard of anyone disappointed in that lens. Great price you got it for as well.
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Moderator

[patrickh]

Enjoy that lens Mo, it's a cracker. And that was a really good price if it's in good nick

patrickh
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DSLR: Nikon D300 Nikon D200 Nex 5N
MF Zooms: Kiron 28-85/3.5, 28-105/3.2, 75-150/3.5, Nikkor 50-135/3.5 AIS // MF Primes: Nikkor 20/4 AI, 24/2 AI, 28/2 AI, 28/2.8 AIS, 28/3.5 AI, 35/1.4 AIS, 35/2 AIS, 35/2.8 PC, 45/2.8 P, 50/1.4 AIS, 50/1.8 AIS, 50/2 AI, 55/2.8 AIS micro, 55/3.5 AI micro, 85/2 AI, 100/2,8 E, 105/1,8 AIS, 105/2,5 AIS, 135/2 AIS, 135/2.8 AIS, 200/4 AI, 200/4 AIS micro, 300/4.5 AI, 300/4.5 AI ED, Arsat 50/1.4, Kiron 28/2, Vivitar 28/2.5, Panagor 135/2.8, Tamron 28/2.5, Tamron 90/2.5 macro, Vivitar 90/2.5 macro (Tokina) Voigtlander 90/3.5 Vivitar 105/2.5 macro (Kiron) Kaleinar 100/2.8 AI Tamron 135/2.5, Vivitar 135/2.8CF, 200/3.5, Tokina 400/5,6
M42: Vivitar 28/2.5, Tamron 28/2.5, Formula5 28/2.8, Mamiya 28/2.8, Pentacon 29/2.8, Flektogon 35/2.4, Flektogon 35/2.8, Takumar 35/3.5, Curtagon 35/4, Takumar 50/1.4, Volna-6 50/2.8 macro, Mamiya 50/1.4, CZJ Pancolar 50/1,8, Oreston 50/1.8, Takumar 50/2, Industar 50/3.5, Sears 55/1.4, Helios 58/2, Jupiter 85/2, Helios 85/1.5, Takumar 105/2.8, Steinheil macro 105/4.5, Tamron 135/2.5, Jupiter 135/4, CZ 135/4, Steinheil Culminar 135/4,5, Jupiter 135/3.5, Takumar 135/3.5, Tair 135/2.8, Pentacon 135/2.8, CZ 135/2.8, Taika 135/3.5, Takumar 150/4, Jupiter 200/4, Takumar 200/4
Exakta: Topcon 100/2.8(M42), 35/2.8, 58/1.8, 135/2.8, Kyoei Acall 135/3.5
C/Y: Yashica 28/2.8, 50/1.7, 135/2.8, Zeiss Planar 50/1.4, Distagon 25/2.8
Hexanon: 28/3.5, 35/2.8, 40/1.8, 50/1.7, 52/1.8, 135/3.2, 135/3.5, 35-70/3.5
P6 : Mir 38 65/3.5, Biometar 80/2.8, Kaleinar 150/2.8, Sonnar 180/2.8
Minolta SR: 28/2.8, 28/3.5, 35/2.8, 45/2, 58/1.4, 50/1.7, 135/2.8, 200/3.5
RF: Industar 53/2.8, Jupiter 8 50/2
Enlarg: Rodagon 50/5,6, 80/5,6, 105/5.6, Vario 44-52/4, 150/5.6 180/5.6 El Nikkor 50/2,8,63/2.8,75/4, 80/5,6, 105/5.6, 135/5.6 Schneider 60/5.6, 80/5.6, 80/4S,100/5.6S,105/5.6,135/5.6, 135/5.6S, 150/5.6S, Leica 95/4

[peterqd]

The cost of manufacture is a factor, but that isn't the real reason why 85s are so expensive. You'd never sell an expensive, high quality, lens (or anything else) unless someone was prepared to pay for it. The price is set by supply and demand. What we should be asking is why is there such high demand for 85mm lenses.
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Peter - Moderator

[std]

There are some cheap russian 80 and 90mm (volna-3 and vega-12) but those are medium format lenses so they are normal focal length for 6x6 format.
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Stefan

My lens list:
SLR MD: Rokkor 1,7/50 Exakta: Kilfitt-Makro-Kilar E 3.5/4cm; CZJ 2/50 Pancolar; E.Ludwig Meritar 2.9/50; CZJ 4/135 Sonnar alu M42: CZJ 2.8/50 Tessar; Mir-1B 2.8/37; T-mount: Tamron 5.9/200; Tamron 6.9/300; Tamron 7.5/400 C-mount: Cosmicar 1.8/50 Schneider-Kreuznach Variogon 1:2/18-90 Y/S: Sun 3.5/38-90, Sun 4/70-210 RF Contax RF: Jupiter-8 2/50; Contax G: CZ 2,8/28 Biogon T; CZ 2/35 Planar T; CZ 2,8/90 Sonnar T

[pst]

Isn't it possible to make a Gaussian type lens? Somehow change a 50/1.4 into a 85/2 or so...?
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Regards, Patrick.