Voigtlander Skopar-X 2.8/50 pop

alex ph · Joined: 16 Mar 2013 Posts: 1585

Good take and very nice shots!

alex_d · Joined: 19 Jan 2019 Posts: 337

bloody ... !! this looks very good, and im even not a fan of garden flora !

what does it means "..Pics taken at short distance with a big tele opening at 0,8 .." ?

big tele opened at f0.8 or 0.8m distance or .. sth else ?

1st 2 is about impossible

lumens pixel · Expire: 2021-06-25

BrianSVP · Joined: 09 Jun 2023 Posts: 303 Location: Philadelphia

While I agree that transitions between in focus and out of focus areas, sharpness, field curvature etc. can enhance what is commonly referred to as "pop," I disagree that they are the key factor. What really defines "3D pop" is the rendering of microcontrastual transitions that give elements within in the objects in a photo a sense of depth, contour, and texture.

This is an effect that is somewhat mimicked in the tone mapping used on the HDR shots that were so popular a few years ago. Unfortunately, digital tonemapping never quite achieves the realistic-looking tone transitions that a good "pop" lens does, and it's really easy to "overcook" an image using these digital techniques, which is one of the reasons lenses with this characteristic still tend to be prized.

Here are some pics I took last summer at a 70th birthday party for the mother of a friend of mine, both with a Leitz Summicron-R 50mm f/2, a lens celebrated for its "pop."

This first one seems to support the some of propositions upthread of what defines pop - sharpness (although there is motion blur if you pixel peep) and good definition at the transitions between in-focus and out-of-focus areas:

Look at this second one, a quickly posed family "red carpet" shot. Yes, it's still sharp, but it's a flat composition, and almost the entire photo is in the zone of focus. While not as dramatically as in the previous shot, it still "feels" 3D. Why? Take a look at the tonal gradations in the faces and the folds of the clothing and background. See how they lend a sense of depth that a lot of other lenses do not?

One more from the same day. In this one, the subject in front isn't even completely in focus, and has motion blur, but guess what? She still pops, because the tonality, enhanced by the black and white processing I used, lends her depth! In fact, IMO, good microcontrast can enhance the perception of sharpness, even where it is lacking. This particular lens is a great example, as in reality, it isn't actually a world-beater on lp/mm tests, but nearly everyone who reviews it describes it as a very sharp lens!

3D "pop" as a characteristic is something that is commonly associated with vintage German/European designs, and I can only surmise why not so many Japanese designs are thought to have it. This might be an intentional choice - a fairly significant percentage of people find overly-textured images unsettling or even disturbing, a form of Sensory Processing Disorder, so this effect might have been considered undesirable on lenses such as wide angles, that would be commonly used to photograph scenes with a lot of potential texture, such as landscapes.

It's interesting to observe that most of the celebrated vintage Japanese "pop" lenses tend to be in portrait lengths, as faces seem to not trigger this sensation in sufferers. Here's a perfect example, one of the most celebrated photos of all time, taken with probably the most famous of Japanese "pop" lenses, the Nikkor Ai-S 105mm f/2.5, Michael Curry's Afghan Girl cover for National Geographic:

This image is a perfect example of using the inherent 3d pop of the lens, along with other techniques, to lend a sense of depth and drama to an image. Notice the depth and texture of the skin, particuarly around the striking green eyes, along with the deep, contoured shadowy folds of the scarf. Curry used Kodachrome 64, a film with great color depth and high macrocontrast, to achieve an even more striking image, as well as subject isolation and very effective lighting, to create an image that seemed like it jumped right off the cover of the magazine.

Now of course, perception of images is something that is entirely psychological and subjective, so YMMV, but this is how I see it.

Circling back around to the Skopar-X we are talking about here, I'd personally describe it as having a medium level of "pop" to it, more than say a typical 1970's Japanese 50, but not at the level of the lenses I've discussed here. It can deliver decent pop in the right situations - Alex's photos of the corrugated pipe and the post box show what it can do with the right composition and lighting - but I don't find most of the other examples in the thread to pop all that much.

There are some DKL mount lenses with excellent pop characteristics - the Retina Xenon 50/1.9 and the Voigtlander Septon 50/2 are a couple that really stand out - but not so much this one. It's a lens I've gone back to several times, as I really want to like it, as it has excellent sharpness, and I really like the way it renders blue skies, but I've always found something unpleasantly harsh about it, particularly in the corners. Too bad, as I love the tiny, ultra-dense construction and the way it feels when I use it. Maybe I'll have to pull it off the shelf and see if I can find an application for it where I like it better.

alex_d · Joined: 19 Jan 2019 Posts: 337

lumens pixel · Expire: 2021-06-25

BrianSVP · Joined: 09 Jun 2023 Posts: 303 Location: Philadelphia

I don't disagree with the proposition that one can make an image "pop" with any number of lenses through skillful/opportune directional lighting and composition.

I do think, however, that there certainly are lenses that "pop" more than others in a wider variety of light conditions and compositions, and these are the one that tend to get recognized for this characteristic. The three examples I posted were all taken in diffuse and even shaded/cloudy light, quickly and with very little thought put into tonal composition, yet they still exhibit a good to excellent amount of "pop." The Summicron-R I used to take them also delivers this characteristic with flash, in harsh daytime light, or in pretty much any other lighting condition, whether the shot is set up to maximize tonal gradation or not, and does not require extensive processing to make it show. The Ai-S 105/2.5 behaves the same way.

The corollary to this is that if a lens does already have "pop" characteristics, if you do have a handle on the other factors, its also much easier to use them to your advantage to create a truly striking "3d" image.

RokkorDoctor · Expire: 2025-05-01

I have to admit I still struggle to see what is meant with the "pop" effect in all of the above images.

I also can see no "3D" effect/illusion in any of them; looking with one eye or both, they look as flat as a pancake to me.

I guess I just don't understand what effect I should be looking for.

alex_d · Joined: 19 Jan 2019 Posts: 337

BrianSVP · Joined: 09 Jun 2023 Posts: 303 Location: Philadelphia

Nice.

BrianSVP · Joined: 09 Jun 2023 Posts: 303 Location: Philadelphia

Here's what Lloyd Chambers has to say on the subject at Zeiss.com, with some very clear examples of pop in a variety of shooting situations. If you can't see it in these photos, I don't know what to tell you:

https://lenspire.zeiss.com/photo/en/article/micro-contrast-and-the-zeiss-pop-by-lloyd-chambers

alex ph · Joined: 16 Mar 2013 Posts: 1585

RokkorDoctor · Expire: 2025-05-01

alex_d · Joined: 19 Jan 2019 Posts: 337

Elevated micro-contrast combined with exceptional acuity and defocused regions culminates in a 3D PoP in the photograph.

RokkorDoctor · Expire: 2025-05-01

lumens pixel · Expire: 2021-06-25

BrianSVP · Joined: 09 Jun 2023 Posts: 303 Location: Philadelphia

Agree mostly, w/ the caveat that it requires a juxtaposition against OOF. It can enhance the perceived effect, but not strictly necessary. The Chambers article even includes some examples that use focus stacking to achieve massive DOF but still clearly exhibit it to my eyes.

Echoing Lumens, yes, it's a psychological thing, along the lines of an optical illusion, so chances are different individuals experience it differently.

Don't know how "new" a buzzword it is, as I've been hearing it since at least the early 2000s, long before I heard photographers start talking about microcontrast all the time, which has only been the past 10 years or so. Perhaps "pop" is more commonly used on this side of the pond? Back when I was a regular Pentaxian, people in that crowd used to like to call it "fairy dust." It was a trait that their Limited series lenses tended to accentuate, while their others tended to render in a more traditionally Japanese "flat" way.

alex_d · Joined: 19 Jan 2019 Posts: 337

Back to the lens, I agree.

I will add next / about the lens;
This Color Scopar lens really nails that dreamy bokeh and ethereal vibe that I live for in my photography.
The 3D pop is just the cherry on top, giving my shots that extra dimension and depth.
It's the perfect lens for capturing those subtle, yet striking moments that make every frame a work of art.
And I havent still wrote anything about the color vibes, yet... more to come

Ernst Dinkla · Joined: 30 Nov 2016 Posts: 380

I was curious to see a 'pop' difference between the Vito BL Color Skopar 50mm 2.8 and the Yashica 35 YK Yashinon 45mm 2.8. Age comparable, camera type not that different. Both lenses have a Sony FE mount these days.

Both images cropped to the same 3:4 ratio, the Yashinon a bit more, and then default Auto Adjusted in C1, the exported files both expanded to the same size with bicubic smooth and then both reduced to the same 25 percentage size with bicubic sharp.

visualopsins · Expire: 2025-04-11

Thank you Ernst! In the Voigtlander image, the texture of the leather(?) beneath the fishing line spool has much much more detail than in the Yashica image. Also colors seem more saturated.

Ernst Dinkla · Joined: 30 Nov 2016 Posts: 380

BrianSVP · Joined: 09 Jun 2023 Posts: 303 Location: Philadelphia

The Voigtlander does seem to have a little more "pop," most apparent to me on the sculpture, and to a lesser extent on the glass. If you look at the top of the sculpture in front of the card on the first image, it appears more contoured and forward, while on the Yashinon, it kind of falls into the background. PArt of it is the edge sharpness, but it's apparent on the inner contours as well.

Subtle, but it's definitely a difference that's perceptible to me.