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Bokeh "Paintings"
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:24 am    Post subject: Bokeh "Paintings" Reply with quote
Once again I attended Kuhmo Chamber Music Festival - this was my twenty-fifth time Smile I had my 350D + Radionar with me, but was in no mood for photography. However, I was carrying the camera with me, and one day while waiting for the doors to the concert hall to be opened, I decided to do an experiment with the Radionar which produces no untoward phenomena in the OOF region behind the focus point. I picked some, in my mind, promising targets and focused much too near in order to produce something resembling impressionistic paintings, expecially if printed on Fine Art paper.

I have attached three samples. People were all the time moving around, getting between me and my intended target, which spoiled many shots. Anyway, I just tried to find out what amount of OOF and what kind of light and color composition would produce reasonable results. I have done no PP except slight amounts of exposure adjustment.







Veijo


PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think that one of the problems with this technique in photography are the light values. In paintings, the light values are more compressed, and the colour values are decisive for the overall result. In a photo, even one with moderate dynamic range, there are often highlight areas that are so bright compared to the other areas that they "kill" the colour balance (strong highlights look white or whiteish regardless of the colour of the surface they hit).
I think that your second photo is the most successful because the highlights are toned down and they blend better with the colours of the other parts.

There is a brazilian photographer, Mona Kuhn, who often uses blur in the same pictorial way, here's one of her images:



I don't think this image of her is very successful, I am disturbed aesthetically by the strong highlights on the bodies. I prefer your second image, in fact.


PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
nice result, #2 is my favorite


PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi, Veijo.
Nice to read from you again.

The second one really looks like a painting and the old lens surely adds to that effect.


PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi, Veijo.

I prefer the last one and think it would be a great painting. Smile
The red (belt) brings lot to the picture by anchoring the view.
Then the upper left side brings some lines and leads to the upright.
I like it.


PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Maybe something more like the wonderful chinon 55mm F1.7 lens would be better for oil painting a few samples of what i acheived with it.






PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
That's interesting, Eddie.
In this area, the Helios-40 is also a wonderful performer, as well as the Jupiter-9, or the Volna-3.
There are surely other good softness performers.

Here, I think that Veijo's researchs are different.
He is looking for the best out of focus setting to perform a photography looking like oil painting.
Not sure that the best results are obtained with the lens wide open.
It must be a difficult setting to find between aperture, light, on purpose OOF (how much) and the special bokeh given by a specific lens.
It sounds very challenging and interesting to me. That's a true Photography Art Research. Smile

Veijo, could you tell us your different choices ?


PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio wrote:
I think that one of the problems with this technique in photography are the light values. In paintings, the light values are more compressed, and the colour values are decisive for the overall result. In a photo, even one with moderate dynamic range, there are often highlight areas that are so bright compared to the other areas that they "kill" the colour balance (strong highlights look white or whiteish regardless of the colour of the surface they hit).


There are painting styles, old and new, with strong colours and very bright highlights, the highlights often nearly white but under control when done by a skillful painter.

Quote:
I think that your second photo is the most successful because the highlights are toned down and they blend better with the colours of the other parts.


I agree, the second one is the most satisfactory of these three shots, which are the creme of a set of about ten. However, I don't think highlights per se are a problem - the main problem was the dynamic range of the setting, getting something out of the shadows when the shot is prevented from clipping. When there is no clipping, much can be done done during PP to tame the highlights - often even without resorting to local editing, which I try to avoid.

Quote:
There is a brazilian photographer, Mona Kuhn, who often uses blur in the same pictorial way, here's one of her images:



I don't think this image of her is very successful, I am disturbed aesthetically by the strong highlights on the bodies. I prefer your second image, in fact.


I think her photo, especially the highlights, would look quite different taken with my Radionar, more like highlights in a painting and more amenable to manipulation if deemed necessary. The highlights on the above photo are structurally quite hopeless compared with, e.g, what you see in the nature shots I posted on June 26. My shots are reasonable even on screen, and prints on Fine Art paper look very much like watercolors. The maximum dynamic range of the prints is something like 4 stops (most probably even less), and the texture of the paper also helps.

Anyway, mastering this technique takes a lot of experimentation and practice, there is no such thing as a free lunch - despite the helping lens.

Veijo


PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
poilu wrote:
nice result, #2 is my favorite


Thanks, mine, too.

Veijo


PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
LucisPictor wrote:
Hi, Veijo.
Nice to read from you again.


Hi, thanks.

Quote:
The second one really looks like a painting and the old lens surely adds to that effect.


Agreed, that was the idea.

Veijo


PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Olivier wrote:
Hi, Veijo.

I prefer the last one and think it would be a great painting. Smile
The red (belt) brings lot to the picture by anchoring the view.
Then the upper left side brings some lines and leads to the upright.
I like it.


Hi,

yeah, the composition is OK given the people milling around, but a little bit less dynamic range on the scene would have given somewhat more leeway in handling the shadow part. The red saved a lot, anyway.

Veijo


PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
eddieitman wrote:
Maybe something more like the wonderful chinon 55mm F1.7 lens would be better for oil painting a few samples of what i acheived with it.


Well, depends on the style one tries to emulate. My shots try to be impressionist, yours are perhaps more expressionist, especially the first one. I do not try to emulate brush strokes, just the general feeling, subdued colours, gradual transitions and natural highlights.

Veijo


PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Olivier wrote:
That's interesting, Eddie.
In this area, the Helios-40 is also a wonderful performer, as well as the Jupiter-9, or the Volna-3.
There are surely other good softness performers.


The softness of those lenses is OK if the background is far enough. However, often the bokeh is so abominable, IMHO, that I finally got sick of the Helios and sold it.

Quote:
Not sure that the best results are obtained with the lens wide open.
It must be a difficult setting to find between aperture, light, on purpose OOF (how much) and the special bokeh given by a specific lens.
It sounds very challenging and interesting to me. That's a true Photography Art Research. Smile

Veijo, could you tell us your different choices ?


Well, presently I use the front cell focusing Radionar with an external focusing mechanism (a helicoid), fully open and the front cell screwed so much out that it just doesn't drop off, which setting maximizes the obtainable spherical aberration.

The combination of aperture settings and an adjustable front cell gives a lot of control over the result (bokeh, softness and the structure of DOF), but I haven't yet done any systematic testing. For my present frame of mind the softest setting is just right, and using just one setting saves me from a lot of unnecessary thinking Smile

Veijo
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