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vilva
Joined: 04 Mar 2007 Posts: 785 Location: Porvoo/Borgå, Finland
Expire: 2015-05-27
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:39 pm Post subject: Rapid Rectilinear on 5D |
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vilva wrote:
There is no hope of sunshine before Wednesday or Thursday, and I just had to try to do some shooting despite the cloudy weather. Well, it meant 5D at ISO 1000 and exposure times between 1/30 and 1/80 s, not too good with a 180 mm lens, hand-held. I got a few decent shots in the Botanical Garden but nothing else really worth showing. I've put some of the garden shots at http://galactinus.net/vilva/retro/eos5d_rr2bg.html .
I didn't use a lens hood, yet there is discernible vignetting in some of the shots. It turns out the throat of the Edixa bayonet bellows is slightly too narrow for the FF 5D! Here is an example, see the lower corners of the photo:
Well, I can live with that until I get another bellows with a wider throat.
After these, mainly bokeh shots I'm rather impatiently waiting for the sunshine to get an opportunity to see how this lens performs in better light and under high contrast conditions.
Veijo |
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poilu
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 Posts: 10469 Location: Greece
Expire: 2019-08-29
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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poilu wrote:
Hi Veijo. Your site is a real treasure. Thanks for your hard work. _________________ T* |
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LucisPictor
Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 17633 Location: Oberhessen, Germany / Maidstone ('95-'96)
Expire: 2013-12-03
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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LucisPictor wrote:
This lens seems to give an "artistic" rendering to an image.
Nothing I would look for in a lens, but it has a certain effect.
Looking forward to seeing the better-light-results... _________________ Personal forum activity on pause every now and again (due to job obligations)!
Carsten, former Moderator
Things ON SALE
Carsten = "KAPCTEH" = "Karusutenu" | T-shirt?.........................My photos from Emilia: http://www.schouler.net/emilia/emilia2011.html
My gear: http://retrocameracs.wordpress.com/ausrustung/
Old list: http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=65 (Not up-to-date, sorry!) | http://www.lucispictor.de | http://www.alensaweek.wordpress.com |
http://www.retrocamera.de |
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Jesito
Joined: 24 Aug 2007 Posts: 5745 Location: Olivella, Catalonia, (Spain)
Expire: 2015-01-07
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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Jesito wrote:
poilu wrote: |
Hi Veijo. Your site is a real treasure. Thanks for your hard work. |
I join Poilu in thank you, Veijo... I went into the MF business the day I reached your site. "Old lenses on my 350D?", I said then. And spent a lot of time looking all the lenses you tried.
And after yours, I found this one, so a big thanks also to Attila for keeping it up and running!
Best regards,
Jes. _________________ Jesito, Moderator
Jesito's backsack:
Zooms Sigma 70-300, Tamron 35-135 and 70-210 short, 70-210 long, 28-70 CF Macro, 35-70, 35-80, Vivitar 70-210 KA, Tamron 70-250.
Fixed Industar-50, , Tamron 24mm, Tamron 135mm, Sands Hunter 135mm, Pancolar 50mm, Volna-3, many Exakta lenses
DSLR SIGMA SD9 & SD14, EOS 5D, Sony A700 and NEXF3, Oly E-330, E-400, E-450, E-1
TLR/6x6/645 YashicaMat, Petri 6x45, Nettar, Franka Solida, Brilliant
SLR Minolta X300, Fuji STX II, Praktica VLC3, Pentax P30t, EXA500, EXA 1A, Spotmatic(2), Chinon CM-4S, Ricoh, Contax, Konica TC-X , Minolta 5000, 7000i, 3Sxi, EOS 500 and CX
Rangefinders Chinon 35EE, Konica C35 auto, Canonet 28, Yashica Lynx, FED-2, Yashica electro 35, Argus C3 & C4, Regula Cita III, Voigtlander Vitoret (many), Welta Welti-I, Kodak Signette 35, Zorki-4, Bessa-R & L, Minolta Weathermatic, olympus XA2
Compact Film Konica C35V, Voigtlander Vitorets, Canon Prima Super 105, Olympus XA2 and XA3
Compact Digital Olympus C-5050, Aiptek Slim 3000, Canon Powershot A540, Nikon 5200, SIGMA DP1s, Polaroid X530, IXUS55, Kodak 6490, Powershot G9 and G10
CSCCanon EOS-M, Samsung NX100 and NX210, Lumix G5, NEX-F3 |
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 29545 Location: West Emilia
Expire: 2012-12-04
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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Orio wrote:
Veijo is an "institution" in the world of manual focus lenses, it's thanks to his site (and to Bjorn Roerslett's) that I found out about the possibility of mounting old lenses with adapters. _________________ Orio, Administrator
T*
NE CEDE MALIS AUDENTIOR ITO
Ferrania film is reborn! http://www.filmferrania.it/
Support the Ornano film chemicals company and help them survive!
http://forum.mflenses.com/ornano-chemical-products-t55525.html |
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vilva
Joined: 04 Mar 2007 Posts: 785 Location: Porvoo/Borgå, Finland
Expire: 2015-05-27
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: |
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vilva wrote:
LucisPictor wrote: |
This lens seems to give an "artistic" rendering to an image.
Nothing I would look for in a lens, but it has a certain effect. |
The bokeh of this lens is probably of the Gaussian type, which is softer even than a neutral bokeh. Consequently photos with e.g. grass, like the one displayed above, are much less restless as there are no sharp or bright edge outlines in the bokeh of OOF grass. I think this is the most distinguishing feature of these lenses. Having a lens like this gives one a choice and also helps to understand the behaviour of one's "normal" lenses. There is no perfect lens. Every lens misbehaves under some circumstances or in some respect. When extreme sharpness and contrast aren't absolutely necessary, an older lens may be the better behaved choice, and the photos taken with them are often quite malleable - within limits, of course. These photos may also stand out among the blandly sharp multitude. With a very good lens one has to get everything just right in order to produce an outstanding photo, mere technical excellence is often just too commonplace.
Veijo |
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 29545 Location: West Emilia
Expire: 2012-12-04
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:30 am Post subject: |
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Orio wrote:
vilva wrote: |
The bokeh of this lens is probably of the Gaussian type, which is softer even than a neutral bokeh. Consequently photos with e.g. grass, like the one displayed above, are much less restless as there are no sharp or bright edge outlines in the bokeh of OOF grass. I think this is the most distinguishing feature of these lenses. Having a lens like this gives one a choice and also helps to understand the behaviour of one's "normal" lenses. There is no perfect lens. Every lens misbehaves under some circumstances or in some respect. When extreme sharpness and contrast aren't absolutely necessary, an older lens may be the better behaved choice, and the photos taken with them are often quite malleable - within limits, of course. These photos may also stand out among the blandly sharp multitude. With a very good lens one has to get everything just right in order to produce an outstanding photo, mere technical excellence is often just too commonplace.
Veijo |
This post should be placed on the main page of this forum so that everyone who enters should read it.
_ _________________ Orio, Administrator
T*
NE CEDE MALIS AUDENTIOR ITO
Ferrania film is reborn! http://www.filmferrania.it/
Support the Ornano film chemicals company and help them survive!
http://forum.mflenses.com/ornano-chemical-products-t55525.html |
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 29545 Location: West Emilia
Expire: 2012-12-04
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:40 am Post subject: |
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Orio wrote:
Wanted to add that these old lenses often are resolving well although they do not appear sharp. Lack of apparent sharpness is often to attribute to low contrast (which in turn has often to do with lack of coating). But contrary to resolvance, contrast can be increased via software.
_ _________________ Orio, Administrator
T*
NE CEDE MALIS AUDENTIOR ITO
Ferrania film is reborn! http://www.filmferrania.it/
Support the Ornano film chemicals company and help them survive!
http://forum.mflenses.com/ornano-chemical-products-t55525.html |
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Richard_D
Joined: 21 Oct 2007 Posts: 2378 Location: Faversham Kent UK
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:21 am Post subject: |
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Richard_D wrote:
Both excellent points - lens design for primes hasn't significantly improved over the last 50 years, but I find multi-coatings have improved a lot whilst build quality has declined! |
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vilva
Joined: 04 Mar 2007 Posts: 785 Location: Porvoo/Borgå, Finland
Expire: 2015-05-27
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:24 am Post subject: |
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vilva wrote:
Richard_D wrote: |
Both excellent points - lens design for primes hasn't significantly improved over the last 50 years, but I find multi-coatings have improved a lot whilst build quality has declined! |
The design of Rapid Rectilinear is from 1866, Cooke Triplet was patented in 1893 (although triplets had been used in astronomy since 1765), Zeiss Planar was designed in 1896 and Tessar was patented in 1902. High quality aspheric lenses were presented to the Royal Society in 1667 (yes, in the 17th century!), and apochromatic correction (APO) was invented in 1867. So 50 years is nothing. High speed and wide angles are still difficult, especially in combination, but mostly the old designs are doing well enough for practical photography. A well built and coated Cooke Triplet would be a killer at f/5.6, just look at my test photos with an uncoated and slightly damaged one. I'd also like to have a coated RR - despite the optical aberrations.
Veijo |
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Ballu
Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 912 Location: Columbus, OH. USofA
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Ballu wrote:
vilva wrote: |
Richard_D wrote: |
Both excellent points - lens design for primes hasn't significantly improved over the last 50 years, but I find multi-coatings have improved a lot whilst build quality has declined! |
The design of Rapid Rectilinear is from 1866, Cooke Triplet was patented in 1893 (although triplets had been used in astronomy since 1765), Zeiss Planar was designed in 1896 and Tessar was patented in 1902. High quality aspheric lenses were presented to the Royal Society in 1667 (yes, in the 17th century!), and apochromatic correction (APO) was invented in 1867. So 50 years is nothing. High speed and wide angles are still difficult, especially in combination, but mostly the old designs are doing well enough for practical photography. A well built and coated Cooke Triplet would be a killer at f/5.6, just look at my test photos with an uncoated and slightly damaged one. I'd also like to have a coated RR - despite the optical aberrations.
Veijo |
I think Biogon was one of the last design invented/patented (which was variation of another design patented in mid-40s). The sorce of my information is this page,
http://www.panix.com/~zone/photo/czlens.htm
I am going to start other thread about design in link section... _________________ -Ballu
http://balyanpage.blogspot.com/ |
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LucisPictor
Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 17633 Location: Oberhessen, Germany / Maidstone ('95-'96)
Expire: 2013-12-03
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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LucisPictor wrote:
vilva wrote: |
LucisPictor wrote: |
This lens seems to give an "artistic" rendering to an image.
Nothing I would look for in a lens, but it has a certain effect. |
The bokeh of this lens is probably of the Gaussian type, which is softer even than a neutral bokeh. Consequently photos with e.g. grass, like the one displayed above, are much less restless as there are no sharp or bright edge outlines in the bokeh of OOF grass. I think this is the most distinguishing feature of these lenses. Having a lens like this gives one a choice and also helps to understand the behaviour of one's "normal" lenses. There is no perfect lens. Every lens misbehaves under some circumstances or in some respect. When extreme sharpness and contrast aren't absolutely necessary, an older lens may be the better behaved choice, and the photos taken with them are often quite malleable - within limits, of course. These photos may also stand out among the blandly sharp multitude. With a very good lens one has to get everything just right in order to produce an outstanding photo, mere technical excellence is often just too commonplace.
Veijo |
Yes, but we must not forget that often this special character of a lens is a consequence of a suboptimal aberration correction, such as the famous "Leica glow" of the old Leica lenses which is not more than that but really has a aesthetical value.
Extreme sharpness and extreme contrast are mostly exclusionary. That means that a lens that is optimised to render extremely sharp will most probably not produce a very high contrast and vice versa.
Every modern lens design is a compromise and sometimes they are able to find a best possible solution. _________________ Personal forum activity on pause every now and again (due to job obligations)!
Carsten, former Moderator
Things ON SALE
Carsten = "KAPCTEH" = "Karusutenu" | T-shirt?.........................My photos from Emilia: http://www.schouler.net/emilia/emilia2011.html
My gear: http://retrocameracs.wordpress.com/ausrustung/
Old list: http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=65 (Not up-to-date, sorry!) | http://www.lucispictor.de | http://www.alensaweek.wordpress.com |
http://www.retrocamera.de |
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 29545 Location: West Emilia
Expire: 2012-12-04
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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Orio wrote:
LucisPictor wrote: |
Extreme sharpness and extreme contrast are mostly exclusionary. That means that a lens that is optimised to render extremely sharp will most probably not produce a very high contrast and vice versa.
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Hm... I'm not convinced about this exclusivity.
Sharpness is not a measurable quality but a psychological impression that results from the interaction of two objective factors: resolvance, and contrast. _________________ Orio, Administrator
T*
NE CEDE MALIS AUDENTIOR ITO
Ferrania film is reborn! http://www.filmferrania.it/
Support the Ornano film chemicals company and help them survive!
http://forum.mflenses.com/ornano-chemical-products-t55525.html |
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LucisPictor
Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 17633 Location: Oberhessen, Germany / Maidstone ('95-'96)
Expire: 2013-12-03
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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LucisPictor wrote:
That's right, Orio. But often sharpness is used as a synonym of resolution.
And I refer to this definition.
Let's continue with a quote:
"For the optical designer contrast and resolution are in conflict. Increase one and you reduce the other. Various lens makers have differing philosophies in the regard. Historically, for example, Zeiss was reputed to design their lenses for maximum resolution, while Leica apparently tended to favour maximum contrast. It is design decisions like these that account in part for the differing "looks" of different lens brands."
(See: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/understanding-mtf.shtml)
Any MTF chart will show that a lens cannot provide perfect resolution and perfect contrast.
Of course, following your definition, sharpness is a subjective result of a perfect set-up of these two aspects.
Then my comment is no longer valid. _________________ Personal forum activity on pause every now and again (due to job obligations)!
Carsten, former Moderator
Things ON SALE
Carsten = "KAPCTEH" = "Karusutenu" | T-shirt?.........................My photos from Emilia: http://www.schouler.net/emilia/emilia2011.html
My gear: http://retrocameracs.wordpress.com/ausrustung/
Old list: http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=65 (Not up-to-date, sorry!) | http://www.lucispictor.de | http://www.alensaweek.wordpress.com |
http://www.retrocamera.de |
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