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Carl Zeiss Planar 50mm f/0.7
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:32 pm    Post subject: Carl Zeiss Planar 50mm f/0.7 Reply with quote


In next week's first anniversary episode of the Classic Lenses Podcast (Episode 50, 7 Jan), we will finally talk about using classic lenses and their use as cine lenses. To talk to Karl, Johnny and I about the subject, we have none other than Matthew Duclos of Duclos Lenses.

https://www.ducloslenses.com/

As well as being a world authority on adapting lenses for the motion picture industry and the capability of polishing/recoating old lenses, he also just happens to have one of the ten Carl Zeiss Planar 50mm f/0.7 lenses.

If you have any questions you would like us to put to Matthew, please drop them into this thread or email them to classiclensespodcast@gmail.com

One last thing, we will also be giving away a 50mm lens, for details on how to win the mystery lens, just listen to next week's podcast for details.

(We will not be giving away a 50/0.7 Planar)


PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Like 1 Like 1 Like 1 WOW! He rents that 0.7/50mm out btw... Wink


PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Carl Zeiss Planar 50mm f/0.7 Reply with quote
itsfozzy wrote:

If you have any questions you would like us to put to Matthew, please drop them into this thread or email them to classiclensespodcast@gmail.com




Could you ask Matthew, if he's tried them, what he thinks of the filters out there that are meant to provide an anamorphic look to standard lenses.


PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi,

Kindly, could you please ask Mr Duclos what the measured t-stop is on the planar?
(Apologies if this information is already available online, I haven’t been able to find it)

Regards and appreciative of your work to make the podcast,
Justin


PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Some respected people / websites (including en.wikipedia and marcocavina) claim, that the lens was made to survey "the far side" or "the dark side" of the moon:

"The lens was designed and made specifically for the NASA Apollo lunar program to capture the far side of the Moon in 1966" (en.wikipedia)

"col budget triplicato, la NASA incrementò gli sforzi legati alle missioni lunari e fu programmato il lancio di cinque navette Ranger
destinate ad entrare in orbita lunare per eseguire una mappatura fotografica ravvicinata, ivi compresa la famosa "dark side" sempre nascosta e poco illuminata" (Marco Cavina)

This of course doesn't make sense - the far side of the moon, never visible from earth, is regularly illuminated by the sun; whenever we have "new moon", the far side is in plain sunlight!

Others such claim the lens was made so fast to get shutter speeds fast enough to shoot sharp images from the surface of the moon:
"La lente fu progettata appositamente per il Programma Apollo della NASA nel 1966, probabilmente per essere montata su dei satelliti in orbita terrestre e lunare, al fine di una ricognizione scientifica e di rilevamento del suolo lunare. La grande luminosità avrebbe permesso delle riprese nitide dato un tempo rapido di esposizione, fondamentale per via della velocità di sorvolo della sonda." (it.wikipedia)

This doesn't make sense, either - the well known spy satellites of the time had huge telephoto lenses, albeit with much less speed than f=0.7!!

What was the real original purpose of constructing theses lenses?

Stephan


PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
According to J.P. Clerc, those super fast lenses were originally designed to photograph fluorescent images of radiographic screens and cathode ray tubes.

Nothing to do with getting exotic bokeh Laugh 1

The Zeiss Planar F0.7 was used by Stanley Kubrick to shoot the Barry Lyndon movie scenes under candle light:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVF1zoyQJHY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8_VLXmrgss

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKNwyZiZ7cA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkJZOxqB-qk


PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here some interesting source, basically Dr Glatzel's work, chief designer of ZEISS at this time:

https://celluloidpopculturejunkie.wordpress.com/tag/zeiss-50mm-f0-7-lens/


(C) Marco Cavina

I have somewhere what Dr Glatzel published about the developemnt of this lens, will see if I can locate it...

Here from a cinematographer site about this lens by Ed DiGiulio, who once integrated this lens into a Mitchell camera:
http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/sk/ac/len/page1.htm which has been partly used in the a.m. link.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The 50mm f/0.70 Zeiss Planar was indeed the result of a special order by the NASA to equip the Apollo 8 manned circumlunar flight in 1968. It is said that it was destined to image the parts of the moon not directly lit by the sun (the far side) while the Apollo spacecraft was orbiting the moon. But this point is disputed: http://www.collectspace.com/ubb/Forum14/HTML/001361.html

In total there were only 10 lenses made: one was kept by Carl Zeiss, six were sold to NASA, and three were sold to Stanley Kubrick. You can find some details (in French) about this lens here: http://www.dg77.net/photo/tech/fastex.htm#sk and here: http://www.dg77.net/photo/tech/fastvarg.htm#planarspe


Credit: Dominique Guebey - Variantes ultra-lumineuses du type Gauss

Apparently, Dr Erhard Glatzel and Hans Sauer, who developed the lens for Zeiss, drew part of their inspiration from the 41mm f/0.8 lens designed by Maximilian Herzberger for Kodak:


Credit: Ed. Kaprelian, Journal of Motion Picture Engineers juillet 1949 cited in Dominique Guebey - Variantes ultra-lumineuses du type Gauss

But most of the inspiration came from fast X-ray lenses, like the Leitz f/0.85 above or this f/0.85 55mm Carl Zeiss Jena Röntgenschirmbildobjektiv:


Credit: Frank Mechelhoff - History of fast 35mm and small format film lenses

According to Frank Mechelhoff, X-ray lenses for 35mm film were used in the 30's to 50's for photographing X-ray screens (lung / TBC screening) because 35mm film was cheaper than life size X-ray film. The cameras were mostly built into fixtures and had no focusing device. Because of the dark X-ray screens very fast lenses were required.

According to Dominique Guebey, these lenses are just fast Planar / Double Gauss lenses with a converging rear optical block added (like a SpeedBooster) destined to reduce the focal length and increase the aperture. For example, the above f/0.8 Herzberger lens is in fact a 100m f/2.0 lens with a built-in focal reducer transforming it into a 41mm f/0,8 lens.

Cheers!

Abbazz


PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Very well added Sebastien, thanks a lot!

Btw. I have that special fast Biotar in my collection which was (may have been) the grandfather of this design...



and I recently got a 2nd one, all complete in MINT condition...



PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nice lenses, Klaus! I would guess the 55mm f/0.85 is very unlikely to cover 24x36, as these lenses usually have a field angle that barely exceeds 30°. What is the focal length of the other lens?

Cheers!

Abbazz


PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Conceptually, the Zeiss 50mm F0.7 is very simple. It is basically a 6-element classic Double-Gauss lens (blue) plus a focal reducer (red):



PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Abbazz wrote:
Nice lenses, Klaus! I would guess the 55mm f/0.85 is very unlikely to cover 24x36, as these lenses usually have a field angle that barely exceeds 30°. What is the focal length of the other lens?

Cheers!

Abbazz


Sebastien,

both are 55mm focal length, same optics, just different housings. From what I know, they cover 24x24mm format.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wow, what an amazing piece of history. I shall definitely look out for the podcast next week.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Gerald wrote:
Conceptually, the Zeiss 50mm F0.7 is very simple. It is basically a 6-element classic Double-Gauss lens (blue) plus a focal reducer (red):




Interesting. I must try a focal reducer on my double-gauss 1.4 Takumar and see what gives.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
KEO wrote:
Barry Lyndon is a great movie, in case anyone hasn't seen it. It's a Kubrick film that doesn't often get as much attention as some of his other work, but it's certainly one of his best. Not only is the photography stunningly beautiful, the music score is brilliant.


Sorry, made a little bubu while splitting Wink


PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Abbazz wrote:
The 50mm f/0.70 Zeiss Planar was indeed the result of a special order by the NASA to equip the Apollo 8 manned circumlunar flight in 1968. It is said that it was destined to image the parts of the moon not directly lit by the sun (the far side) while the Apollo spacecraft was orbiting the moon. But this point is disputed: http://www.collectspace.com/ubb/Forum14/HTML/001361.html

...

Cheers! Abbazz


Thanks for the information - it still doesn't make sense to me.
I may, however, have been something like that:
https://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/nmc/experiment/display.action?id=1966-104A-08 (Searching for matter accumulated around the "zero gravity" points between earth and moon)

Since the original experiment on Gemini 12 did not give usable results (malfunction of the equipment including a f0.95 lens), a similar experiment might have been proposed for one of the Apollo flights. But the lens might have had another use, not related to Apollo at all.

Stephan


PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Maybe someone find this pdf about the NASA Photo Equipment interesting...


PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:

Thanks for the information - it still doesn't make sense to me.
I may, however, have been something like that:
https://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/nmc/experiment/display.action?id=1966-104A-08 (Searching for matter accumulated around the "zero gravity" points between earth and moon)

Since the original experiment on Gemini 12 did not give usable results (malfunction of the equipment including a f0.95 lens), a similar experiment might have been proposed for one of the Apollo flights. But the lens might have had another use, not related to Apollo at all.

It is indeed quite strange that there is not a word about the 50mm F/0.7 Zeiss Planar in the abundant online NASA documentation, while there are so many documents referencing other lenses, like the 80mm F/2.8 Planar (Hasselblad) or the 50mm F/0.95 Canon.

The crucial question that arises is: on which camera was mounted the big Zeiss lens? It is stated that the lens issued by Zeiss for the NASA was equiped with a Compur #3 shutter, so we can exclude it was destined to be mounted on one of the Hasselblad, Contarex and later Nikon bodies used at the time for NASA's manned missions.

The F/0.70 lens might have been mounted on the Maurer 220G 70mm modular camera used for time-lapse photography and data acquisition. This camera is mentioned for example, in this document regarding the Gemini space missions (1965-1966):

NASA wrote:

Camera Equipment



Figure 18-1 shows a selection of camera equipment used during the Gemini Program. The majority of the photographs were obtained with the NASA-modified 70-mm Hasselblad Camera, Model 500-C ; both the 80-mm Zeiss Planar and 250-mm Zeiss Sonnar lenses were used. The Super Wide-Angle 70-mm Hasselblad Camera, Model SW A, was used on the Gemini IX-A through XII missions. Although designed primarily as an extravehicular activity device, the Model SW A camera recorded some of the most spectacular terrain photography of the program. The 70-mm Maurer Space Camera was also carried on Gemini IX-A through XII and permitted a unique versatility resulting from rapid interchangeability of components. The gray 80-mm Xenotar lens and magazine (50-frame capacity) secured conventional color photographs. The red f/0.95 Canon lens and magazine permitted scientific photography of very low light-level phenomena such as horizon airglow and libration regions. The blue lens, prism, grating, and magazine system were designed to work in the ultra violet regions, primarily to record stellar spectrographs. Motion-picture equipment manufactured by J. A. Maurer, Inc., is also pictured. The 70-mm magazine especially built by Cine Mechanics Inc., allow the Hasselblad systems to secure 65 frames instead of the conventional 12. A second-generation Cine Mechanics magazine with a capacity of about 160 frames was used on Gemini XII.
Table 18-1 indicates the various 70-mm films carried on Gemini flights. The thickness of the film varied from about 0.007 inch to 0.0025 inch. Most of the film had emulsion coatings and bases especially formulated to NASA specification. Figure 18-2 shows the machine manufactured by Hi-Speed Inc. to process the Ektachrome film. Great care was used in processing the Gemini flight film. Prior to processing the film, the machine was thoroughly cleaned and then checked for precise sensitivity control; this included checks of the various photographic processing chemicals, exact temperatures, cycle durations, and chemical replenishments. The flight films were sent through the processor singly; this required a considerable amount of time but allowed very close surveillance. No flight film was lost due to laboratory malfunctions.



This document mentions the Canon f/0.95 50mm lens as one of the lenses used on the Maurer and the Maurer was also used on Apollo missions, so it would have been possible that he faster f/0.70 Zeiss was mounted on the Maurer later on Apollo missions, but the big Planar's small imaging circle makes this unlikely.

In fact, there is no trace of the 50mm f/0.70 Zeiss Planar or of the camera it could have been used on in NASA's "Apollo Missions - Photography Equipment and Techniques", or in the Photographic and TV Operations Plan - Apollo 8.

Maybe the explanation is, as you suggested, that the f/0.70 Planar was part of one of the scientific experiments and was not intended for general imaging.

Cheers!

Abbazz


PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you all for contributing to this thread, most of which has gone way over my head!

I think the big questions have already been answered in the thread to some degree, but I'm sure they will get covered to some degree again in the podcast. I am not sure how much detailed knowledge Matthew will have, but I'm looking forward to speaking to Matthew as much as you guys are to hear him from Monday.

The podcast will not be just about the Planar of course, but I will devote a good deal of time to it.

Thanks again!


PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just a quick announcement to say that Matthew Duclos was unable to be with us for the recording this week, however he should be back with us for Episode 52 in a couple of weeks.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sorry to read that. So... a chance to look back over your first year and pick your personal highlights? Every cloud has a silver lining and all that.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sciolist wrote:
Sorry to read that. So... a chance to look back over your first year and pick your personal highlights? Every cloud has a silver lining and all that.


Yes, it was a bit of a blow, but these things happen. On the positive side it gave us the chance to go through the emails that have been building up, and were likely to continue to build up as we have another "feature rich" podcast lined up for next week, so the emails would have been left again.


PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm delighted to say that Matthew was able to Join Karl and I for the recording of thisweek's show (Episode 52, out tomorrow).

Spoiler alert, you guys already know far more about this lens in terms of it's history than Matthew, and I direct listeners to this excellent thread.

We do however talk about the usability of the lens and if you're a dreamer like me, then it makes for required listening...


PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


Well we finally got Matthew on the podcast and it's worth noting that he does not possess the same level of historical knowledge of the lens that has been shown by the members of MFLenses.com. Despite that Matthew provides us his insight on on the usability of the lens.

Episode 52. Matthew Duclos & The Heartbreaker

Think that using flawed lenses to make interesting imaging is just a still photography thing? Think again! Matthew Duclos of Duclos Lenses explains how he helped shape the trend towards using old lenses in Hollywood. Plus what makes for a good cine lens, find out about his "Heartbreaker" and oh, Mathew talks about his company's Carl Zeiss Planar 50mm f/0.7...

Classic Lenses Podcast on Podmio
https://podcastplayer.io/podcast/Simon%20Forster/4x

iTunes
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/classic-lenses-podcast/id1333620068?mt=2

We can be found using Google's podcast app

Classic Lenses Podcast on Stitcher:
https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/simon-forster/the-classic-lenses-podcast

Ko-fi donations to support the podcast
www.ko-fi.com/classiclensespodcast

Email feedback, ideas, and questions for the podcast
classiclensespodcast@gmail.com

Tag your Instagram photos with #classiclenses & #bestvintagelens
Include lens and camera used in caption

Links arising from the discussions;

Matthew Duclos
https://www.ducloslenses.com/
https://www.instagram.com/mqduclos/
https://www.instagram.com/ducloslenses/
Matthew@ducloslenses.com

Carl Zeiss Planar 50/0.7 discussion on MFLenses
http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic,p,1520608.html#1520608

Anamorphic Format
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anamorphic_format

Anamorphic Flare
https://www.anamorphicstore.com/anamorphic-lens-flare/

Cooke Optics
https://www.cookeoptics.com/

Octoblues Royalty Free Music by Kevin Macleod
http://incompetech.com/music/royalty-free/

Karl Havens
https://www.flickr.com/photos/142719425@N05

https://www.instagram.com/karl_havens/

Johnny Sisson
https://www.instagram.com/sissonphotography/

Central Camera Company in Chicago
https://centralcamera.com/

Simon Forster
www.simonforsterphotographic.co.uk
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/itsfozzyphotography
https://www.flickr.com/photos/125323761@N07/
https://www.facebook.com/SimonForsterPhotographic/
https://www.instagram.com/simonforsterphotographic/
https://twitter.com/SimonFor

Logo by Johnny Sisson

Last edited by itsfozzy on Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:03 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Abbazz wrote:
The 50mm f/0.70 Zeiss Planar was indeed the result of a special order by the NASA to equip the Apollo 8 manned circumlunar flight in 1968. It is said that it was destined to image the parts of the moon not directly lit by the sun (the far side) while the Apollo spacecraft was orbiting the moon. But this point is disputed: http://www.collectspace.com/ubb/Forum14/HTML/001361.html

In total there were only 10 lenses made: one was kept by Carl Zeiss, six were sold to NASA, and three were sold to Stanley Kubrick. You can find some details (in French) about this lens here: http://www.dg77.net/photo/tech/fastex.htm#sk and here: http://www.dg77.net/photo/tech/fastvarg.htm#planarspe


Credit: Dominique Guebey - Variantes ultra-lumineuses du type Gauss

Apparently, Dr Erhard Glatzel and Hans Sauer, who developed the lens for Zeiss, drew part of their inspiration from the 41mm f/0.8 lens designed by Maximilian Herzberger for Kodak:


Credit: Ed. Kaprelian, Journal of Motion Picture Engineers juillet 1949 cited in Dominique Guebey - Variantes ultra-lumineuses du type Gauss

But most of the inspiration came from fast X-ray lenses, like the Leitz f/0.85 above or this f/0.85 55mm Carl Zeiss Jena Röntgenschirmbildobjektiv:


Credit: Frank Mechelhoff - History of fast 35mm and small format film lenses

According to Frank Mechelhoff, X-ray lenses for 35mm film were used in the 30's to 50's for photographing X-ray screens (lung / TBC screening) because 35mm film was cheaper than life size X-ray film. The cameras were mostly built into fixtures and had no focusing device. Because of the dark X-ray screens very fast lenses were required.

According to Dominique Guebey, these lenses are just fast Planar / Double Gauss lenses with a converging rear optical block added (like a SpeedBooster) destined to reduce the focal length and increase the aperture. For example, the above f/0.8 Herzberger lens is in fact a 100m f/2.0 lens with a built-in focal reducer transforming it into a 41mm f/0,8 lens.

Cheers!

Abbazz


Incredible stuff and read--thank you! Best--jt
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