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Survey : Takumar 83/1.8 or Auto Takumar 85/1.8 ?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:18 pm    Post subject: Survey : Takumar 83/1.8 or Auto Takumar 85/1.8 ? Reply with quote


Survey : for you, what are the two missing lenses ? Same order in the two blocs, if lens 'A' is on the forst row in upper block, it also is the first row of the lower block. Available choices : Tkaumar 83/1.9 and auto Takumar 85/1.8.


PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have no experience whatsoever with these two lenses, and bokeh-wise they look identical for sure. When it comes to "rendering", the uppermost to me looks more Sonnar-like, the middle one more Planar-like ... But I may be wrong, of course Wink

S


PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The 83mm is f1.9 and pretty rare in m42, but it was also made in m37 for the Asahiflex. It is a 7 element design, opposed to the more simple 5 element auto-takumar 85/1.8 (similar to Super-Tak 85/1.9)



PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
D1N0 wrote:
The 83mm is f1.9 and pretty rare in m42, but it was also made in m37 for the Asahiflex. It is a 7 element design, opposed to the more simple 5 element auto-takumar 85/1.8 (similar to Super-Tak 85/1.9)



It's interesting to see how they were able

1) to eliminate the middle lens of the Sonnar-like three-lens-element (probably a low dispersing glas) and replace its functions by using a "new" glass with both high index and (relatively) low dispersion for second lens,

2) and to "integrate" the last (=seventh) lens of the 1.9/83mm into the fifth lens of the 1.9/85mm (which now is much thicker)

Would be interesting to have additional information about the glass used in both constructions, but that's what they probably did.

S


PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'd sooner think they made a design that was cheaper to make. No cementing the front group. Most people shot B+W so CA didn't matter much yet. Pentax had a Ultra-achromatic Takumar for critical photography (UV) https://www.pentaxforums.com/lensreviews/Ultra-Achromatic-Takumar-85mm-F4.5.html



Expensive and employed only quartz fluorite lens elements.

Sadly Member Asahiflex seems to have lost interest in photography so most of his samples hosted on his website have disappeared, but he uploaded this one here:




PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:
I have no experience whatsoever with these two lenses, and bokeh-wise they look identical for sure. When it comes to "rendering", the uppermost to me looks more Sonnar-like, the middle one more Planar-like ... But I may be wrong, of course Wink

S


In fact I was surprised because I was expecting a greater difference at least in bokeh. They seem very very close to me. One is a bit sharper at full eperture but this is the only noticeable difference. The very slight difference in bokeh will not change a bad picture to a nice one (or degrade a nice picture).


PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
CarbonR wrote:

In fact I was surprised because I was expecting a greater difference at least in bokeh. They seem very very close to me.
...
The very slight difference in bokeh will not change a bad picture to a nice one (or degrade a nice picture).


Absolutely.

I have made the same observation years ago when comparing the bokeh of many 50ish lenses:
http://artaphot.ch/systemuebergreifend/objektive/477-standard-lens-bokeh-i
http://artaphot.ch/systemuebergreifend/objektive/479-standard-lens-bokeh-ii

It certainly makes a big difference whether you shoot wide open with a MD 2/45mm or a MD 1.2/58mm, but comparing common vintage lenses with identical technical data (e. g. "1.4/50mm") doesn't result in much difference concerning bokeh.

Resolution, however, can differ greatly.

S


PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
CarbonR wrote:
stevemark wrote:
I have no experience whatsoever with these two lenses, and bokeh-wise they look identical for sure. When it comes to "rendering", the uppermost to me looks more Sonnar-like, the middle one more Planar-like ... But I may be wrong, of course Wink

S


In fact I was surprised because I was expecting a greater difference at least in bokeh. They seem very very close to me. One is a bit sharper at full eperture but this is the only noticeable difference. The very slight difference in bokeh will not change a bad picture to a nice one (or degrade a nice picture).


Check the corners? Smile


PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Reminds that I should make a more in-depth comparison of the Sonnar-type and the Xenotar-type Nikkor 2.5/105mm ...

S


PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
visualopsins wrote:
CarbonR wrote:
stevemark wrote:
I have no experience whatsoever with these two lenses, and bokeh-wise they look identical for sure. When it comes to "rendering", the uppermost to me looks more Sonnar-like, the middle one more Planar-like ... But I may be wrong, of course Wink

S


In fact I was surprised because I was expecting a greater difference at least in bokeh. They seem very very close to me. One is a bit sharper at full eperture but this is the only noticeable difference. The very slight difference in bokeh will not change a bad picture to a nice one (or degrade a nice picture).


Check the corners? Smile


I find the first one a little bit less busy, but :
- not a big difference that would justify prefering one lens other the other
- not enough character (like the H40), not enough soft (like the Samyang which a creamier bokeh even at f/2.Cool

That annoys me. My first scenario was to keep the Helios H40 (swirly bokeh), the Auto Takumar (smooth bokeh in my mind), the 83/1.9 (different smooth bokeh due to Sonnar type lens) and the Samyang. After the first tests, I've found that the two Takumar were very close and needed to performe other tests (these ones). Now I am even not sure about the interest of keeping any of the Takumar. If I want a sharp lens, I take the Samyang, if I want a creamy bokeh I take the Samyang, if I want a special bokeh I take the Helios. If I want to masturbate about having such sought-after lenses, I keep the Takumars, I see no case where they would be better than the two other lenses. I also have to keep in my that my Auto Takumar 85/1.8 is in exceptionnal condition for this lens (hard to find and any wear will reduce its value), and the 83/1.9 is near irremplaceable, so it will be a hard choice to take them outside (because risky).

Nota : I already sold the S-M-C 85/1.8 for similar reasons.


PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
D1N0 wrote:
...
Sadly Member Asahiflex seems to have lost interest in photography so most of his samples hosted on his website have disappeared ...

Peter is MFlenses member Spotmatic iirc.


PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ok he's called Asahiflex on the Pentax Fora.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Interesting, I think I'll keep my Takumar 85/1.9, and my Canon FD SSC 85/1.2 Aspherical and my Topcor 85/1.8, etc....

I'm still somewhat wanting to get the SMC K 85/1.8 for my collection, but I'm having a hard time justifying it since I don't shoot my backwards focusing lenses very much, which is a shame really.

To be honest, these days I am more likely to grab a lens that inspires me to shoot vs a technically superior lens.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The K version (and S-M-C 1.Cool are a more modern design. Sharper wide open. Probably not as interesting bokeh but very smooth.
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