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Super Paragon PMC II f/3.5-5.6 28-100mm M42
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:33 pm    Post subject: Super Paragon PMC II f/3.5-5.6 28-100mm M42 Reply with quote
Hi folks

Picked this up for basically nothing in unused condition. Not expecting much from an old Japanese no-name zoom, this maybe a Cimko made lens as my other Super Paragon is made by them. It's a one-touch design and I don't like the way it zooms, th lens feels solidly made but the zoom and focus mechanism feels a little slack and doesn't inspire confidence.

Pouring with rain and overcast here today so stuck a 25mm extension on the back and shot some macros.

Not very sharp but I like the overall image it gives, has a sort of vintage soft look. These were all taken wide open at the 100mm setting. Maybe this will make a decent portrait lens where the lack of sharpness won't be an issue but an asset?








I really like how the drop off to out of focus is so severe and how it has given this image a really dreamy soft effect, I could see this softness being useful in some circumstances, gave to shoot some portraits to see how they turn out.



PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Did you shoot these on a tripod with a shutter / timer release? I only ask as they look like they have some camera shake which will affect our ability to judge sharpness Smile

There seems to be quite a few of these Paragon lenses about for very little cost indeed.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ManualFocus-G wrote:
Did you shoot these on a tripod with a shutter / timer release? I only ask as they look like they have some camera shake which will affect our ability to judge sharpness Smile

There seems to be quite a few of these Paragon lenses about for very little cost indeed.


No, they are handheld. I wondered if it was camera shake too, the lettering looks like there was some camera shake. I used 1/50 sec shutter speed which is a bit slow for a 100mm lens.

Paragons are common on ebay and go for pennies, I have a 200mm one, most are zooms but you do see a few primes too, the 200 seems quite common. I know the 200 is a Cimko lens and the later Cimkos are supposed to be among the worst lenses ever made so I don't expect this 28-100 will be any great shakes.

I will snap some more pics though with a faster shutter speed, hope the weather is better tomorrow then I can test this thing outside in full sunlight.

Here's some shots without the camera shake, it's not as lacking in sharpness as I thought, I really like some of these shots, the IQ is nothing special but there's something about the way this lens renders that I like.
















This is the shot I really like, just something about the creamy rendering, I can see this lens proving useful for portraiture.



Last edited by iangreenhalgh1 on Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:27 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yep, it's worth remembering that you have a 1.6 crop factor too, so a 100mm lens will need 1/160 minimum on a 10D really. Tripod and shutter release is best for test images though, as you can put the ISO at 100 and produce nice, clean images for comparison.

BTW, the Paragon 24/2.8 is OK too Wink


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ManualFocus-G wrote:
Yep, it's worth remembering that you have a 1.6 crop factor too, so a 100mm lens will need 1/160 minimum on a 10D really. Tripod and shutter release is best for test images though, as you can put the ISO at 100 and produce nice, clean images for comparison.

BTW, the Paragon 24/2.8 is OK too Wink


Ah, I need to buy a tripod, that's the problem! The one I have is ancient and so wobbly I can take as steady a shot handheld! I do have a cable release however.

Thanks for bearing with me through my trials and tribulations with these lens tests, I'm just a beginner really, not done any photography since my college days. I really appreciate the feedback and advice.

You can probably tell I shot the first set of images on ISO 1600, the second set i did with the on cam flash and ISO 400 hence they are much less grainy. It's a rotten dull and overcast day here, not a good time to be taking test shots! But I will get a new tripod soon, I promise!

I'll keep an eye out for that Paragon 24, I'm actually looking for a good 24 that won't break the bank.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
There is something rather strange about the way this lens handles specularity and highlights/reflections. I've never seen anything quite like this before but I like the effect, could be put to good artictic effect methinks.

The out of focus shots really show the effect strongly, is this unusual, can;t say I've seen a lens produce this effect before, closest I can think of is those doughnuts you get with mirror lenses.








PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It is not that odd that a lens, built of a larger number of lenses, has some complex out of focus rendering.

Is the subject in your test a Zeiss Nettar? I have one somewhat older (type 515/2) with similar shutter and lens and it is capable for serious picture taking; you should get it in usefull state and put a film in it!
It is recommendable to put it on a decent tripod too, just like the DSLR for testing. The tripod may be old, but it certainly should not be wobbly! Good ones can come very cheap now and then.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Minolfan wrote:
It is not that odd that a lens, built of a larger number of lenses, has some complex out of focus rendering.

Is the subject in your test a Zeiss Nettar? I have one somewhat older (type 515/2) with similar shutter and lens and it is capable for serious picture taking; you should get it in usefull state and put a film in it!
It is recommendable to put it on a decent tripod too, just like the DSLR for testing. The tripod may be old, but it certainly should not be wobbly! Good ones can come very cheap now and then.


Yup, that's a Nettar, I forget which model now, begins with a 7. It's battered but the bellows are light tight and the shutter cocks and fires but I dunno if the timings are okay. The lens is full of fungus so needs taking apart and cleaning. I have removed the lens and plan to dismantle it, remove the shutter blades and fungus then remount it for use on my EOS. I know it's a shame to kill a Nettar but I only bought it for the lens. If anyone wants a Nettar body minus lens they can have it for the postage cost, it needs the leatherette replacing, the black paint on the body removing and redoing but apart from that it's a nice camera and feels like it will last another half a century.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I own another Panagor - not the same as you have. It is excellent and shows very good IQ. Maybe you made something wrong ?

http://forum.mflenses.com/auto-panagor-macro-zoom-f3-5-75-205mm-part-ii-with-pics-t26802,highlight,%2Bpanagor.html


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Some non-macro shots without the extension tube. A bit grainy due to the 400 ISO setting but I like the colours, well saturated. I find this lens easy to focus and not bad to handle apart from the zoom which I still haven't got used to. There's something about the character of the images this lens captures that I like.


















PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rolf wrote:
I own another Panagor - not the same as you have. It is excellent and shows very good IQ. Maybe you made something wrong ?

http://forum.mflenses.com/auto-panagor-macro-zoom-f3-5-75-205mm-part-ii-with-pics-t26802,highlight,%2Bpanagor.html


Hello Rolf

Very possible I did something wrong, I often do!

This lens isn't a Panagor it's a Paragon. I believe Panagor lenses have a good reputation. Paragon I don't know much about, many of them were made by Cimko but apart from that I know nothing.

If you don't mind, would you please tell me what you notice is wrong with the pics, I know what's wrong with the first set - too low shutter speed resulting in camera shake but I would value your input as to what is wrong with the others and could be improved.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I googled for info and found a little:

Quote:
I'm not sure these have much if anything to do with Kino - Paragon is just Photax's marketing brand, just like Revue is for Quelle in Germany. In fact these "Photax-Paragon" (and occasionally just "Paragon") lenses (2.8/28, 2.8/35, 2.8/135, and possibly the 3.5/200 and 5/300) are also available as "Revuenon-Special" among other names. Not certain who made them, but I did once see what looked to be the same 2.8/135 badged "Cosinon". Make of that what you will wink

The "Super-Paragon PMC" lenses are made by Cimko, and the original range are remounted Topcon designs (except possibly the 3.8/80-200). Interestingly these have a consistent serial number scheme where the first number denotes which model it is (1=28mm, 2=35mm, etc.) - these show up as "Auto Revuenon" and others as well. There are also some slightly later ones in this range (28-50, 24mm, at least one rare one-touch 80-200) which I think are Cimko's own design - they can also be found as "Cimko MT-series". All these are easily identifiable as they share variations of a factory-interchangable mount patented by Cimko.

As for the later "Super Paragon PMC II" range, well, some of them seem identical to the "CPC Phase 2" lenses apparently produced by someone in connection with Pentax. They also all seem to have serial numbers starting with "8" but some are prefixed with a "K". Again what that signifies I don't know.

Of course there's also the T-mount preset "Paragon" range which may or may not be related, but seem to be the quintessential 'generic Japanese lens'.

Rob.


http://forum.manualfocus.org/viewtopic.php?id=8309

My lens is labelled:

Super Paragon PMC II Auto Zoom 1:3.5-5.5 28-100mm No.K8400637

So if the info I found is correct, then it's a bit of a mystery who made this lens, 'someone in connection with Pentax' isn't very enlightening!

I wonder what the K stands for? Kino? Kiron? Komine?


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
There is a thread here about a Super Paragon PMC II 28mm that is obviously the same manufacturer as my 28-100, the labelling on the front is the same, the serial number doesn't have a K but othersie, it's the same.

That 28 is a good lens and someone else mentions having a good 135 S P PMC II so it seems they aren't all that bad.



Quote:
Almost certainly Cima Kogaku (Cimko). To verify, see if the lens mount is held on by four unevenly spaced screws. Or, add a picture of the mount end of the lens.


I had a look at the back of my lens and it has four screws but they look evenly spaced to my eyes, 90 degrees apart from each other.

I also found these pics of a Super Paragon PMC II 80-200mm F4.5, this lens is also clearly the same manufacturer as my lens:





So I'm fairly sure I have a Cimko lens.

I've spotted two different people reccomending the 2.8/135 from this lens and Olivier from France says the 3.3/200 (which I also have) is a good lens. The accepted view is that the later 1980-85 Cimko lenses are amongst the worst in quality but from the reports people have given it would seem they are not bad at all, nothing special but definitely not garbage.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Rolf wrote:
I own another Panagor - not the same as you have. It is excellent and shows very good IQ. Maybe you made something wrong ?

http://forum.mflenses.com/auto-panagor-macro-zoom-f3-5-75-205mm-part-ii-with-pics-t26802,highlight,%2Bpanagor.html


Hello Rolf

Very possible I did something wrong, I often do!

This lens isn't a Panagor it's a Paragon. I believe Panagor lenses have a good reputation. Paragon I don't know much about, many of them were made by Cimko but apart from that I know nothing.

If you don't mind, would you please tell me what you notice is wrong with the pics, I know what's wrong with the first set - too low shutter speed resulting in camera shake but I would value your input as to what is wrong with the others and could be improved.


Sorry, my mistake. It is an advantage if someone can read Laughing Laughing Laughing

What is wrong ? 1. As you said before the shutter speed and b. wrong focus.

Wink


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rolf wrote:
Sorry, my mistake. It is an advantage if someone can read Laughing Laughing Laughing

What is wrong ? 1. As you said before the shutter speed and b. wrong focus.

Wink


No apology necessary, easy mistake to make, the names are anagrams of each other after all.

The focus was very hard to get just right with the lens wide open, the dof was very shallow, the candid shots of people are stopped down 3 stops and the dof increased dramatically.

I am well aware my focussing skills need improvement however!

Apart from the focus problem with some shots, how does the lens IQ look to your eyes? I'm not very experienced so find it hard to judge myself.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
You know that IQ is not all. I would try to improve the images with a little bit more PP and then it is ok.

Wink


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
For sure Rolf, for me the overall character of the image comes first before the actual technical IQ. I'm happy enough with this lens, seems sharp enough for most purposes and I like the colour saturation so I expect i will have some fun using this lens in future.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have a Super Paragon 135mm f2.8 that is a very good lens, it's well made, small, and has great colours. I think that although it is a Photax store own brand, they chose well and sold a decent lens.

But, my 135 looks nothing like your lens, the style of the rubber grip, the style of the engraving and just about everything is different.




The 80-200 in the pictures looks suspiciously like my Vivitar, which according to the serial numbers is a Kobori.

Last edited by Lloydy on Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:39 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hiya Lloydy, I read your stuff about your 135 wih the dead fly, looks like a nice lens you have.

The 28-100 I have feels solidly built and is quite heavy, feels like a quality piece of kit in the hands, so i think you're probably right - Photax chose well.

I have often wondered if with a lot of these rebranded lenses if we are looking at a situation where the lens manufacturers were buying the components for the lens bodies from a small numbers of suppliers, hence we see so many similar looking types. I mean, all the Japanese companies but the blanks for the glass elements from Hoya so it's possible they were also buying other lens parts in from the same supplier hence the commonality of look between many brands.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I shifted the fly carcass, and there is no discernable difference in the lens. Laughing

I like this lens a lot, it just feels like a quality lens. And the straight ribbed rubber grip looks so up to date. I have no idea how old the lens might be, it came on a Praktica MTL50, but most people think it's a modern lens when they see it.

But perhaps they bought different lenses from different manufacturers? If they were all from the same one, and as good as this, I'd go out of my way to find them.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yeah, your lens is different to mine, yours looks quite like my Derek Gardner 135.

That green diamond on your is supposed to indicate a Cimko lens and they say the later Cimkos are crap.

I suppose this just reminds us it is important to test a lens for yourself, especially, as you say, there could be different lenses from different manufacturers depending on the date.

I'd say my lens is from the early 80s, yours is probably that vintage too I think, if not, late 70s but I'm guessing early 80s.

With the price of Paragons on ebay you could risk getting one or two others and see if they are as good as the 135, the zooms are very common, the primes not so much but still pretty common.
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