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guardian
Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 1746
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 Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:49 pm Post subject: Need help camera body selection for my MF lenses |
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guardian wrote:
I am researching this on my own, but you guys know a whole lot more about this than I do and, this being a very high cost purchase, I do not want to risk missing something.
It is Christmas time and a FF digital camera body (only) could be in my immediate future. "Only" there means I will be buying the camera body solely to use with my couple of hundred MF lenses. I will not be buying any AF lenses.
Two "know I needs":
*Need mirrorless camera body because I own a wide variety of GREAT Konica Hexanon MF lenses which are figuring heavily into my plans.
*Need image stabilization in the camera body because I'm old and . . well . . I just need it and it certainly will not be in the MF lenses I will be using.
The above two needs are non-negotiable.
Can anyone offer me suggestions?  |
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tb_a
Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 3678
Location: Austria
Expire: 2019-08-28
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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tb_a wrote:
That's very easy: Only the newer Sony A7 or A9 models are able to fulfill your criteria like FF, image stabilisation and short register distance for lens compatibility. The entry level would be the A7 II and the "high end" the A7R III. Your choice. 
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Thomas Bernardy
Manual focus lenses mainly from Minolta, Pentax, Voigtlaender, Leitz, Topcon and from Russia (too many to be listed here). |
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Lightshow
Joined: 04 Nov 2011
Posts: 3666
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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Lightshow wrote:
A7rII, A7rIII, and A9, also the A7II, it's the cheapest option, A7sII might be a better option if you don't care about resolution and do like to shoot low light.
These are the only FF with IBIS and a short enough register to mount Canon FD, Konica AR, Minolta SR, LTM, M mount.
I'm still shooting my A7r, It's a solid option for adapting, it has a few issues that the 2 & 3 have mostly addressed
Canon and Nikon might join the FF mirrorless party next year, but I'm not holding my breath.
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calvin83
Joined: 12 Apr 2009
Posts: 7588
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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calvin83 wrote:
My choice, a used A7RII as they are cheaper now. Or A7II if you are tight on budget.
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visualopsins
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 11069
Location: California
Expire: 2025-04-11
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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visualopsins wrote:
Yeah, 'nuff said about that.
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Cameras: Sony ILCE-7RM2, Spotmatics II, F, and ESII, Nikon P4
Lenses:
M42 Asahi Optical Co., Takumar 1:4 f=35mm, 1:2 f=58mm (Sonnar), 1:2.4 f=58mm (Heliar), 1:2.2 f=55mm (Gaussian), 1:2.8 f=105mm (Model I), 1:2.8/105 (Model II), 1:5.6/200, Tele-Takumar 1:5.6/200, 1:6.3/300, Macro-Takumar 1:4/50, Auto-Takumar 1:2.3 f=35, 1:1.8 f=55mm, 1:2.2 f=55mm, Super-TAKUMAR 1:3.5/28 (fat), 1:2/35 (Fat), 1:1.4/50 (8-element), Super-Multi-Coated Fisheye-TAKUMAR 1:4/17, Super-Multi-Coated TAKUMAR 1:4.5/20, 1:3.5/24, 1:3.5/28, 1:2/35, 1:3.5/35, 1:1.8/85, 1:1.9/85 1:2.8/105, 1:3.5/135, 1:2.5/135 (II), 1:4/150, 1:4/200, 1:4/300, 1:4.5/500, Super-Multi-Coated Macro-TAKUMAR 1:4/50, 1:4/100, Super-Multi-Coated Bellows-TAKUMAR 1:4/100, SMC TAKUMAR 1:1.4/50, 1:1.8/55
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Contax Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* 28-70mm F3.5-4.5
Pentax K-mount SMC PENTAX-A ZOOM 1:3.5 35~105mm, SMC PENTAX ZOOM 1:4 45~125mm
Nikon Micro-NIKKOR-P-C Auto 1:3.5 f=55mm, NIKKOR-P Auto 105mm f/2.5 Pre-AI (Sonnar), Micro-NIKKOR 105mm 1:4 AI, NIKKOR AI-S 35-135mm f/3,5-4,5
Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (51B), Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (151B), SP 500mm f/8 (55BB), SP 70-210mm f/3.5 (19AH)
Vivitar 100mm 1:2.8 MC 1:1 Macro Telephoto (Kiron)
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guardian
Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 1746
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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guardian wrote:
You fellows are the greatest! Thank you so much!
Yes, the Sony camera bodies seemed like the best choice to me as well. Leica camera bodies are WAY out of my price range!!
I was just afraid there could be something else I might be overlooking because I am very new to this.
MF lenses on a FF camera body should be a kick.
And ready availability of affordable adapters is pretty amazing, too. |
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buerokratiehasser
Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 470
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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buerokratiehasser wrote:
We do have a sub-forum about digital bodies you know, including threads about A9?
Never owned one, cannot tell you what came out of the Rockwell "curved sensor" issue...
There are also the old Amount FF DSLR but I suppose they wont be suitable for you cause, flange distance (Minolta SR already fail). |
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newst
Joined: 21 Oct 2014
Posts: 617
Location: Troy, MI USA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:07 am Post subject: |
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newst wrote:
I have three Sony mirrorless cameras, an NEX-3N and A6500 APS-C sensor bodies and an A7II full frame. I shoot almost 95% with manual lenses, these days Zeiss Contax and LTM rangefinder lenses and Minolta Rokkor SLR lenses. I used to have a large Konica Hexanon collection but I got tired of messing with their clunky aperture control and sold them off, replacing them with the Rokkors.
The Full Frame Sony mirrorless cameras with IBIS started with the A7II, progressed through the A7RII and A7SII then the A( and now the A7RIII.
The A7II is your basic full frame body with a 24mp sensor.
The A7RII is essentially the A7II with a 42mp sensor and some autofocus improvements.
The A7SII is essentially the A7II with a 12(?) mp sensor, big assed pixels that soak up the light, allowing for better video and God-awful high ISO performance.
Unless you plan on shooting video in low light with your manual lenses I don't see where the A7RII or A7SII bodies will justify their additional expense for your usage model.
The Sony A9 has an incredibly fast focus/shot per second capability. It is intended for sports/action photography with performance increases that are basically tied into the Sony FE lens range. An excellent camera but offering no advantage to the manual lens user that will justify the cost.
The A7RIII is essentially the A7RII camera that incorporates most of the autofocus improvements released with the A9. Again, no advantage to the manual lens user.
Back to my recommendation, the A7II. This camera offers full frame performance with good high ISO/low noise capability. Not insanely good as with the A7SII but good enough for most purposes. It produces 24mp RAW files (good enough for my needs) and fine jpg files.
It offers Focus Peaking that really only identifies high contrast areas. Depending on the lens you are using this focus peaking can just be in the ball park or be spot on. You really need to get familiar with each lens's performance. However, the camera also provides focus magnification which is capable of allowing you to lock in your focus. For example:
A7II and Zeiss Sonnar 2.0/85
A7II and Minolta MD Tele Rokkor 2.8/200
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Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway. |
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wolan
Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 577
Location: Zurich
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:23 am Post subject: Re: Need help camera body selection for my MF lenses |
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wolan wrote:
| guardian wrote: |
I am researching this on my own, but you guys know a whole lot more about this than I do and, this being a very high cost purchase, I do not want to risk missing something.
It is Christmas time and a FF digital camera body (only) could be in my immediate future. "Only" there means I will be buying the camera body solely to use with my couple of hundred MF lenses. I will not be buying any AF lenses.
Two "know I needs":
*Need mirrorless camera body because I own a wide variety of GREAT Konica Hexanon MF lenses which are figuring heavily into my plans.
*Need image stabilization in the camera body because I'm old and . . well . . I just need it and it certainly will not be in the MF lenses I will be using.
The above two needs are non-negotiable.
Can anyone offer me suggestions? |
If you are not in a hurry, there are rumours that Fuji is coming out with a mirrorless camera with built-in image stabilisation
I have the X-t2 and before the X-t10, cameras without such a thing. By smartly using the Auto-ISO feature however you are not going to miss it that much.
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calvin83
Joined: 12 Apr 2009
Posts: 7588
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:01 am Post subject: |
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calvin83 wrote:
The difference of A7II and A7RII is huge IMHO even for using MF lenses only. If you have some excellent lenses, R is your choice. If not, then non-R may be fine.
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RnR
Joined: 11 Jul 2012
Posts: 283
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Expire: 2019-08-29
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:23 am Post subject: |
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RnR wrote:
With the Sony series there is also the option of getting the filter stack swapped out for a much thinner one. They are down to 0.2mm nowadays.
I'm hoping Olympus will come out with a full frame mirrorless at some point.
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miran
Joined: 01 Aug 2012
Posts: 1364
Location: Slovenia
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:24 am Post subject: |
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miran wrote:
| newst wrote: |
| The A7RIII is essentially the A7RII camera that incorporates most of the autofocus improvements released with the A9. Again, no advantage to the manual lens user. |
David from phillipreeve.net disagrees: https://phillipreeve.net/blog/upgraders-notes-new-sony-a7riii-pt-1/
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newst
Joined: 21 Oct 2014
Posts: 617
Location: Troy, MI USA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:29 am Post subject: |
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newst wrote:
Let's see what David has to say, shall we?
"I didn’t expect this to be what I most love about the camera, but it is. The manual focus experience is hugely improved. Batis lenses, and some of the Zony lenses, which used to be a little hard to manually focus, are now vastly easier. I’m not 100% sure why: I plan to follow up. Part of it is that the viewfinder is so much crisper you can see the image pop in and out of focus. My suspicion is that the effectively very long travel these focus-by-wire lenses have means that the changes in focus were too subtle to see on the old finder. As a result, in frustration, we twisted the ring quickly and then got the image too far out of focus. But with the new higher resolution finder the long travel becomes an advantage and you can nail focus with probably greater accuracy (but maybe less pleasure) than a standard damped helicoid. That’s my best guess. But I do wonder if in fact the camera is overriding the lens firmware and making the travel a little different, or changing the speed difference at which it goes faster. That’s something to look into. Of course true manual lenses are easier to focus as well, and that can only be the new viewfinder and magnification. So for whatever reason this is my No 1 favourite thing about this all singing and dancing autofocus camera. Better manual focus."
David expresses the opinion that with the Mark III it is somewhat easier to manually focus modern, 'focus by wire' lenses than it was with the Mark II. So what, that 'quality' doesn't apply to the OP's situation since the OP doesn't intend to be mounting modern, 'focus by wire' lenses. Hardly a valid reason to recommend purchasing a $3,200 A7RIII body over a $1,300 A7II body.
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Steve
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway. |
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miran
Joined: 01 Aug 2012
Posts: 1364
Location: Slovenia
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:58 am Post subject: |
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miran wrote:
| newst wrote: |
David expresses the opinion that with the Mark III it is somewhat easier to manually focus modern, 'focus by wire' lenses than it was with the Mark II. So what, that 'quality' doesn't apply to the OP's situation since the OP doesn't intend to be mounting modern, 'focus by wire' lenses. Hardly a valid reason to recommend purchasing a $3,200 A7RIII body over a $1,300 A7II body. |
Let's focus on the parts of his comments that actually apply to us before, shall we?
"I didn’t expect this to be what I most love about the camera, but it is. The manual focus experience is hugely improved. Batis lenses, and some of the Zony lenses, which used to be a little hard to manually focus, are now vastly easier. I’m not 100% sure why: I plan to follow up. Part of it is that the viewfinder is so much crisper you can see the image pop in and out of focus. My suspicion is that the effectively very long travel these focus-by-wire lenses have means that the changes in focus were too subtle to see on the old finder. As a result, in frustration, we twisted the ring quickly and then got the image too far out of focus. But with the new higher resolution finder the long travel becomes an advantage and you can nail focus with probably greater accuracy (but maybe less pleasure) than a standard damped helicoid. That’s my best guess. But I do wonder if in fact the camera is overriding the lens firmware and making the travel a little different, or changing the speed difference at which it goes faster. That’s something to look into. Of course true manual lenses are easier to focus as well, and that can only be the new viewfinder and magnification. So for whatever reason this is my No 1 favourite thing about this all singing and dancing autofocus camera. Better manual focus."
I do agree the price difference is so huge at the moment it's difficult to justify the extra expense just to get a better viewfinder, regardless of how much better it actually is.
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Lightshow
Joined: 04 Nov 2011
Posts: 3666
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Lightshow wrote:
I did find these references to improved peaking, but I still haven't found out what exactly they changed/improved.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1369441-REG/sony_ilce7rm2_b_alpha_a7r_iii_mirrorless.html
Body Design and Built-In Wi-Fi/Bluetooth
An updated Quad-VGA OLED Tru-Finder EVF is featured, and has a 3.69m-dot resolution for bright, clear viewing in high detail. Both Standard and High quality settings can be used, depending on the shooting situation, in order to optimize the viewing experience. This updated viewfinder design also affords the use of autofocus in the Focus Magnifier mode as well as improved focusing peaking to benefit manual focus operation.
http://www.glazerscamera.com/sony-a7r-iii-body
Versatile viewing
- 3.69 million dot Quad-VGA OLED Tru-FinderTM
- High quality mode
- AF in Focus Magnifier
- Improved peaking
https://www.vistek.ca/store/DigitalSLRs/420183/sony-alpha-a7riii-body.aspx
Improved Peaking
The evolved BIONZ X processing engine improves the accuracy of “peaking†display that highlights in-focus areas when focusing manually, making it easier to achieve precise focus.
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One photographers junk lens is an artists favorite tool.
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guardian
Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 1746
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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guardian wrote:
Guys, once again, I am absolutely overwhelmed by the number and helpfulness of the responses to my inquiry in the OP. Thanks so much to everyone.
While I did not mention cost in the OP, obviously it is a huge factor. But rather than focus on cost, I prefer to focus on value . . . which means obtaining the most I'm able for the fewest purchase dollars possible.
What has struck me about the Sony A7 II is the age of the camera body. Far from new, Sony brought their A7 II out way back in 2015. The firmware in now up to rev. 4.0!
I'm not a "bleeding edge" sort of person. It is fine with me to allow others to iron out the "wrinkles" in a product, any product. Boring and unimaginative? Yup, that's me.
Anyway, taking the age of the A7 II into account, and also Sony's experience with design and manufacture of these sorts of camera bodies in general, the A7 II appears to me to represent the best value out there for now.
I'm confident if I waited, if I delayed my purchase, I could do better. But if I wait very much longer I will be dead for sure. |
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Antoine
Joined: 08 Jan 2016
Posts: 298
Location: London
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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Antoine wrote:
Not only Philip Reeve but also Fred Miranda (Sony thread) noted a great improvement for manual focusing with the A7Riii with the EVF bringing easier/quicker focusing and less wasted pictures.
I was hesitating between A7ii and A7Rii (now much cheaper) but after these reviews, I will wait to see A7iii which should have same EVF (manufacturing costs are the same once the development and investment have been spent so why should they put old technology).
I was blaming my difficulties focusing with the A6000 on old age but curiously, it does not apply to film camera. I now realise this was linked (at least partially) to limited EVF pixels
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Sony A6000 APS-C and Sony A7 Rii
Minolta Fisheye MD Rokkor 7.5 mm f4, Fisheye MD 16 f2.8 MD R 17mm f4, MD R 20mm f2.8, MC VFC & MDIII 24mm f2.8, MD 28mm f2.0 &3.5, MD II 35mm 1.8, MD 45mm f2.0, MD 50mm f 1.2 & MD I f1.4, MC PG 58mm 1.2, MD 85mm f2.0, MD R 85mm f2.8 Varisoft, MC 85mm f1.7 MD R 100mm f2.5, MD R 100mm f4.0 macro, MD III 135mm f2.8, MD R 200mm f2.8 & 4.0, RF 250mm f5.6, MD 300mm f4.5, MD APO 400 mm f5.6, RF 500mm f8.0, RF 800mm f8.0 *2 300-s and 300-l
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cooltouch
Joined: 15 Jan 2009
Posts: 9096
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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cooltouch wrote:
| guardian wrote: |
Anyway, taking the age of the A7 II into account, and also Sony's experience with design and manufacture of these sorts of camera bodies in general, the A7 II appears to me to represent the best value out there for now.
I'm confident if I waited, if I delayed my purchase, I could do better. But if I wait very much longer I will be dead for sure. |
Being about one month away from official retirement age, I tend to resemble that remark. And I'll admit that time has become a more pressing factor for me than it used to be. I find myself in a similar situation as you and I also have been looking seriously at the A7 II. I have a Sony NEX 7 and I have found that its 24.3mp sensor is usually plenty for my needs. Really it wasn't all that long ago that 24mp was considered to be huge. My, how quickly we become jaded due to the rapid improvement of technology. But this attitude results in a person wondering when they should jump in, knowing full well that, just around the corner, improvements are coming. Often an unfortunate result is the person getting stalled out and becoming indecisive.
I learned this with computer upgrades because I build my own PCs. You just gotta hold your nose and jump in, and make the best of the tech that you've bought into -- hoping it will last a good while before you're faced with unavoidable upgrades.
Really, I think one can put upgrades off indefinitely with 24 mp. Unless one is into printing out mural size images at very high resolutions. Which I'm not.
And while I consider the improvements to the A7R III to be very compelling, I can't get around that price! I have too many other priorities that have to be met before I can justify such a huge outlay for a camera that will probably only rarely get used in a professional capacity. Thus the chance of having it pay for itself is rather slim for me.
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guardian
Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 1746
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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guardian wrote:
Cooltouch, thanks. But you're just a sprout from where I'm sitting. I retired long ago and my best friends since grade school are already dead.
But I have all these MF lenses now and, at some point, if a decision is not made it never will be made . . . if you know what I mean. I probably should. But I don't regret waiting. Still, the time for waiting now is over. |
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jamaeolus
Joined: 19 Mar 2014
Posts: 2971
Location: Eugene
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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jamaeolus wrote:
Went from canon eos 60d to a7ii. Ibis greatly improved my keeper rate and I can crop or enlarge further. Added the nex 5n as backup. I love my a7ii. But if money came in the mail or I win the lottery (fat chance, I don't buy tickets!) I would go for the a7rii or a7riii. I would get the newest system your budget allows.
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Lightshow
Joined: 04 Nov 2011
Posts: 3666
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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Lightshow wrote:
If you shop wisely, you'll get many years of value out of what ever you choose to get, I'm still shooting my A7r and occasionally my NEX-7, I may upgrade to the A7rIII at some point, not for any improvement in IQ, but in the improvement of the EVF and Peaking, but I'm not in any rush to drain my bank account, plus I would much prefer a FF NEX-7.
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One photographers junk lens is an artists favorite tool.
My lens list
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lightshow-photography/ |
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buerokratiehasser
Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 470
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:12 am Post subject: |
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buerokratiehasser wrote:
Here with the "curved" sensor
kenrockwell.com/sony/a9.htm#leica
Executive summary: MF lenses acquire curvature of field they didnt have before when shot on A9. Ken demonstrating by using Leica lens
Is it true? I dont know. Ken is an Apple user but certainly he can figure out how not to mess up such a simple test.
Perhaps it's the angle from retrofocus design nodal points bla blah blah combined with a sensor that is picky about what angle the light is coming from. If so it should perhaps not be as bad with normal lenses.
Dont know if A7 has same problem if any.
Sorry to be a spoilsport and spamming that Ken link; however i am being motivated by preventing pain and suffering for original poster |
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cooltouch
Joined: 15 Jan 2009
Posts: 9096
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:48 am Post subject: |
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cooltouch wrote:
My APS-C NEX 7 has trouble handling ultra wide lenses. Corners are soft and even the centers aren't that great. The received wisdom seems to be the problem has to do with the way the light rays are bent by these UW lenses, and that the sensor's receptors are not designed to capture detail efficiently from those angles of incidence. Or something like that.
So, after reading through KR's rather rambling diatribe on the subject, it occurred to me that, if what KR is alleging is true, that is, that the A9's sensor's receptors are designed for a certain optimum range of field curvatures, then perhaps the reason why Sony has done this has to do with the lenses that it is currently offering for its FF mirrorless cameras. Sony is offering 12-24 f/4 and 16-35 f/2.8 zooms for these cameras. The 12-24 especially will be taxing that sensor's abilities, methinks, so perhaps a bit of curvature added to the sensor's design was necessary. I dunno, I'm not an optical engineer and it's been too many years since I studied optics in my physics class, so I'm just doing a fair amount of wild-ass guessing here. But might it be plausible at least that Sony saw the necessity of building in this bias in the sensor so as to optimize the a9 for its super-ultra-wides?
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My Gear List: http://michaelmcbroom.com/photo/gear.html
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calvin83
Joined: 12 Apr 2009
Posts: 7588
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:48 am Post subject: |
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calvin83 wrote:
NEX-7 sensor is know to have problem on old ultra wide lenses. The later NEX-C3 has upgraded sensor which improve the performance on the corners. There is a discussion on dpreview about the design on the sensor https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52351544 .
The native E mount lenses are designed with taking consideration of the thickness of the glass in front of the sensor.
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Antoine
Joined: 08 Jan 2016
Posts: 298
Location: London
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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Antoine wrote:
Sony A7ii: 909£
Sony A7rii:1579 £
Sony A7riii: 2900-3000 £ on order
Hard to justify the A7 riii
_________________
Antoine
Sony A6000 APS-C and Sony A7 Rii
Minolta Fisheye MD Rokkor 7.5 mm f4, Fisheye MD 16 f2.8 MD R 17mm f4, MD R 20mm f2.8, MC VFC & MDIII 24mm f2.8, MD 28mm f2.0 &3.5, MD II 35mm 1.8, MD 45mm f2.0, MD 50mm f 1.2 & MD I f1.4, MC PG 58mm 1.2, MD 85mm f2.0, MD R 85mm f2.8 Varisoft, MC 85mm f1.7 MD R 100mm f2.5, MD R 100mm f4.0 macro, MD III 135mm f2.8, MD R 200mm f2.8 & 4.0, RF 250mm f5.6, MD 300mm f4.5, MD APO 400 mm f5.6, RF 500mm f8.0, RF 800mm f8.0 *2 300-s and 300-l
100 mm f4 macro bellows (5/4)
Vivitar 17mm f3.5, Elicar 300mm mirror f5.6, Zhongi turbo ii
Sigma 16mm f 2.8 fish eye
Zooms:24-50 mm f4, 35-70 mm f3.5 macro, 28-85mm f3.5-4.5, 50-135 f 3.5, 70-210 f4 and MD APO 100-500 mm f8 |
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