Mamiya/Sekor = Yashinon (huh?)

Univer · Joined: 30 Jun 2009 Posts: 282

Hi All,

OK, so every so often you see something that really makes you scratch your head.

I know that the earliest Mamiya/Sekor M42 lenses (CWP era) were significantly different, in design at least, from the later M42 lenses that were contemporaneous with the TL and DTL series. I've owned one of the 58/1.7 CWP lenses, I've seen photos of a CWP 50/2 that looked similar in styling to the 1.7, and I recently acquired the huge CWP 135/2.8.

But here's something I haven't seen: a 55/1.8 Mamiya/Sekor that is clearly a rebranded Auto Yashinon. I borrowed these two photos from the just-ended eBay auction, so that they'd remain available here for future reference after the auction photos are removed. Click here to see on Ebay

(Note: that's an adapter shown in one of the photos. The lens is definitely M42.)

By way of comparison, scroll down a bit in this thread, and you'll see some excellent photos of the Yashinon-branded twin. No doubt that this is the same lens.

There's always been a fair amount of controversy regarding the origins of Mamiya's 35mm-format lenses, with the normal lenses, at least, often attributed to Tomioka. I guess, given the close Tomioka/Yashica connection, this could possibly be taken as additional evidence on that point.

Has anyone else ever encountered a Mamiya-branded Yashinon?

Cheers,

Jon

woodrim · Joined: 14 Jan 2010 Posts: 4060 Location: Charleston

Is it Mamiya Sekor=Yashinon, Yashinon=Mamiya Sekor, or that both were made by Tomoika?

The construction is very similar to my Mamiya Sekor 55mm f/1.4

dimitrygo · Joined: 01 Apr 2009 Posts: 561

There is indeed very close relationship between some Yashica and Mamiya lenses but this specific case I'm afraid is a fake. Most chances this is a Yashica lens with a Mamiya label ring.

Univer · Joined: 30 Jun 2009 Posts: 282

Hi,

@woodrim: I'm not attributing this lens, or any other lens, to Tomioka. I'm pointing out that this specific lens, branded "Mamiya/Sekor", is identical in every material respect to the so-called "silver" Yashinon 55/1.8. Since I've never before encountered a M/S lens of this type (and I've owned, used and seen a few over the years) I thought the information might be of interest. For me, this isn't a matter of establishing that Yashica "made" M/S lenses, or that Tomioka made the normal lenses for both brands (although it may well have done so). This is more like seeing a car that is clearly a Toyota, but is wearing a Nissan badge. Maybe there are lots of these lenses around, but I haven't encountered one before - hence my question.

@dimitrygo: that thought occurred to me as well. But there are a couple of points that argue against that. The name ring here is marked "Mamiya/Sekor" - not "Auto Mamiya/Sekor". And every M/S lens I've seen from the TL/DTL era had the "Auto" designation. On the other hand, the M/S lenses from the CWP era - predating the TL and DTL cameras - were indeed marked "Mamiya/Sekor," without the word "Auto". The only thing is, while there was a 55/1.8 sold with the TL and DTL cameras, there was no 55/1.8 during the CWP timeframe. So I'm not sure what lens this ring could have come from. That's not to say it's impossible. For example, there could have been a short run of 55/1.8s, from the very beginning of the TL/DTL period, that lacked the "Auto" designation; and I suppose a name ring from such a lens could have been transplanted to a Yashinon. But you have to take several hypothetical jumps to reach that conclusion. (And that's not even getting into the matter of the name ring seemingly fitting so perfectly.)

Anyway - I find the existence of this lens interesting, whatever its provenance. If it's genuine, then there must be a few others; maybe somebody has seen one.

Cheers,

Jon

LucisPictor · Expire: 2013-12-03

You mean this one?

This was one of my first MF lenses. It has got an M42 mount and performs really well, sharp, very nice rendering and pleasant bokeh.

My copy is a little different from yours. Mine doesn't have this small "window" that shows the chosen aperture and has a higher serial number.

woodrim · Joined: 14 Jan 2010 Posts: 4060 Location: Charleston

Univer · Joined: 30 Jun 2009 Posts: 282

Hi,

I love the M/S 55/1.8! (Actually, I love the 1.4 and the 2.0 also, and I'll probably love the 2.8 too, if I ever get one.) A M/S 2.0 was my very first "normal" lens - when I bought my first SLR, a Praktica Super TL, the salesperson talked me into it as an upgrade from the standard lens. If that standard lens was the Domiplan - I can't recall - I think that was sound advice.

As for those windows on the eBay lens (there are two, actually: a small one for the chosen aperture and a larger one for focus distance, similar in principle to the Takumar design): they're pure Yashinon, not Mamiya. That's what makes the combination of Yashinon design and M/S branding so curious.

Cheers,

Jon

casualcollector · Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:29 pm Post subject:

A lot of M42 normals are very similar.

http://forum.mflenses.com/m-42-normals-different-but-the-same-t10400.html

Univer · Joined: 30 Jun 2009 Posts: 282

My point was slightly different, and slightly less ambitious: a matter of a collector's interest in a variant I hadn't previously encountered.

That many of these normal lenses are similar in terms of construction and design - and that they may in fact come from a common source - is beyond question (although I'm not entirely convinced that the Yashinon 50/1.4 is the same lens as the 55/1.4 lenses). But it's one thing to conclude that they're the same "under the hood," and another thing to find a lens with all the design cues of one brand, but the identification of another.

Look at it this way: one might reasonably conclude that the same manufacturer produced a given lens for both Vivitar and Soligor. But finding that lens with chrome Soligor ears and a Vivitar name ring would still be unusual.

Cheers,

Jon

dimitrygo · Joined: 01 Apr 2009 Posts: 561

Don't know if this can be counted as a proof of Mamiya and Yashica relashonship, but thanks to you I have found and bought this lens few minutes ago:

It seems to be quite rare and most chances is identical to Yashica lens with the same specifications (although I am not sure Yashica can focus down to 45mm).

Univer · Joined: 30 Jun 2009 Posts: 282

Congratulations! I don't think I've ever seen a 50/1.4 Auto Mamiya before - just the 55mm. How very interesting.

Oh, and a quick postscript to my earlier posts: I don't know how I missed this, but there's another reason to associate that odd Yashinon/Mamiya 55/1.8 with the pre-TL period. On the eBay lens, the name "MAMIYA-SEKOR" appears in all caps, with a hyphen - the style used on the early CWP-era lenses. The later M42 TL/DTL lenses use "mamiya/sekor" like that: all lower case, with a slash. (Now I'm starting to wish I had bid on that 55/1.8.)

I think what this teaches me is that I need to check the Mamiya listings carefully, even if the lens looks, at first glance, like a familiar one. How nice that there are some unknown treasures out there!

That's a lovely lens - enjoy it.

Cheers,

Jon

dimitrygo · Joined: 01 Apr 2009 Posts: 561

Univer · Joined: 30 Jun 2009 Posts: 282

Hi,

Just as a followup, I thought I'd post a photo (from a current eBay auction Click here to see on Ebay - borrowed and posted here for posterity's sake) of another one of these Yashinon-like Mamiya-Sekors. This one is a 55/2 rather than a 55/1.8, but it's otherwise very similar to the lens in my original post. Note a couple of things:

1. The word "auto" is not prepended to the brand name (on the beauty ring), as it is on Mamiya/Sekor lenses of the TL/DTL time period.

2. The brand "MAMIYA-SEKOR" appears on the beauty ring in all caps, and with a hyphen. That was also true of the 55/1.8 that started the conversation, and that's the capitalization/punctuation convention followed with respect to lenses of the CWP era, like the 58/1.7. But in the TL/DTL period, the brand appears as "Mamiya/Sekor" - upper/lower case, and with a slash between the two names.

3. This lens is a 55/2. The f/2 lens of the TL/DTL era was a 50mm.

4. The serial number is also in the 4XXXX range.

5. Most interestingly, the camera to which this lens is attached seems to be a CWP. If this lens started its life attached to this body, then we've got pretty persuasive evidence that there was at least a brief production run of Yashinon-esque Mamiya lenses during the production life of this camera model - presumably toward the end (following the 58/1.7, in other words). I wouldn't presume to guess whether the Yashinon-like lenses were carried forward to the TL series, pending the appearance of the chrome-nose Auto Mamiya/Sekor lenses (or whether there were any Yashinon-like Mamiya lenses in other focal lengths).

In any case, I think we have reason to be relatively confident that the 55/1.8 in the original post isn't a user-created hybrid. (Either that, or the same person created two of 'em.)

Cheers,

Jon

dimitrygo · Joined: 01 Apr 2009 Posts: 561

Univer · Joined: 30 Jun 2009 Posts: 282

You're absolutely right. But I'm grateful for the photos, anyway - no charge for looking! Wink

Cheers,

Jon

WolverineX · Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:16 pm Post subject:

i have Yashinon macro 60mm lens that i've seen also branded mamiya sekor, so they probably had same manufacturer

luisalegria · Expire: 2018-01-18

Indeed, some of these 60mm macros are even marked "Tomioka", so in this case there is no doubt who made them.

WolverineX · Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:47 pm Post subject:

mo · Expire: 2016-07-30

Nice find Jon,
Shame about the price Very Happy

Univer · Joined: 30 Jun 2009 Posts: 282

dimitrygo · Joined: 01 Apr 2009 Posts: 561

One more item for collectors - Click here to see on Ebay
Look at a label ring and M/A switch - it is different than usual.

casualcollector · Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:32 pm Post subject:

Plastic is broken off the A-M switch. I have a Mamiya Sekor 55/1.4, the rear element is flat or nearly so. My Chinon 55/1.4 is same. Yashinon 50/1.4 has a noticeably curved rear surface.

dimitrygo · Joined: 01 Apr 2009 Posts: 561

casualcollector · Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:43 am Post subject:

I see. I'll look over my lenses for that detail.