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Lens mount variability in Olympus PEN F/FT lenses
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:10 pm    Post subject: Lens mount variability in Olympus PEN F/FT lenses Reply with quote

The discussion started by Andreas originally in this thread: http://forum.mflenses.com/lens-coating-yellow-vs-blue-t62340.html.

Here are my observations from the five lenses I have now in my possession. Unfortunately, the tips of my calipers are not narrow enough to measure the lens mount precisely, so we would have to rely on pictures only. Picture is clickable.



Lenses, from left to right:

40/1.4 amber F version serial 1270XX flanges slanted
38/1.8 bluish FT version serial 3569XX flanges slanted
20/3.5 bluish FT version serial 1017XX flanges angular
20/3.5 bluish FT version serial 1147XX flanges angular
25/4.0 amber F version serial 1022XX flanges angular

It would be good if other members here can contribute with their information, as it seems that the shape of lens mount does not correlate with differences between F and FT cameras.

Alex


Last edited by Alex H on Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:56 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

20/3.5 "bluish" coating serial 1141XX flanges slanted
38/1.8 "bluish" coating serial 3738XX flanges slanted
40/1.4 "bluish" coating serial 1846XX flanges slanted
42/1.2 "bluish" coating serial 1047XX flanges slanted
60/1.5 "bluish"" coating serial 1038XX flanges angular
70/2 "bluish" coating serial 2015XX flanges angular
100/3.5 "bluish"" coating serial 2280XX flanges angular

Coating changed from F to FT and flanges difference changed in the FT period?


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the following lenses in my collection:

20/3.5 purple coating serial 113590 flanges angular
25/4 amber coating serial 102131 flanges angular
42/1.2 purple coating serial 110155 flanges slanted
60/1.5 purple coating serial 104039 flanges angular
50-90/3.5 amber coating serial 125264 flanges angular
100/3.5 purple coating serial 227335 flanges angular
100/3.5 purple coating serial 231167 flanges angular

EDIT: Found out about the difference between angular and slanted flanges.


Last edited by Pontus on Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:01 pm; edited 3 times in total


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check this post by Andreas/kuuan: http://forum.mflenses.com/lens-coating-yellow-vs-blue-t62340,start,30.html

His pictures show clear differences.


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you very much Alex, Nordentro and Pontus for your efforts!

20/3.5 blue coating - FT version serial 1043xx flanges angular caps fit tight
2.8/25 blue coating FT version serial 1100xx - flanges angular caps fit very tight
4/25 yellow coating F version serial 1055xx flanges angular caps fit loose but locking, to tight
1.8/38 yellow coating F version serial 1500xx - flanges angular caps fit very tight
1.8/38 blue coating FT version serial 3561xx flanges slanted caps very loose, dont lock
1.4/40 - yellow - multi coating (? see my next post ) F version serial 1115xx flanges slanted caps fit loose but locking, to tight
1.4/40 blue coating FT version serial 1840xx flanges slanted caps very loose, dont lock
1.5/60 blue coating FT version serial 1038xx flanges angular caps very tight fit
3.5/100 yellow coating F version serial 1032xx flanges angular caps very tight fit

observations:
I have total 6 original rear caps, and some fit more tight, others more loose, so "caps fit loose but locking, to tight" means that some caps have a loose fit but still barely do lock, and that other caps lock tightly.
All caps lock on all lenses with the angular flanges.
Of the three lenses that have slanted flanges the caps lock on one of them, but on two of them none of the caps lock and fall off!
looks as if consistently F version have yellow coating and FT versions have blue coating, though on some it's difficult to tell resp. the most lenses looks as if they contain both yellow and blue coated elements.

Most plausible explanation for variation of fit of rear caps must be that there is wear of the rear caps, some more and some less which makes some fit more loose and others more tight, and that the slanted flange are responsible for a less tight fit, so that by now the worn rear caps won't lock on them any more at all.
However there also is a difference of fit between the lenses with angular flanges, some fit more tight others more loose with the same cap, and also between those with slanted flanges, on of my lenses with slanted flanges still will, barely, lock the caps, the two others won't and any cap will fall off. Is this due to differing wear of the metal mounts themselves? Or could there possibly even exist an 'original' variations of the thickness of the flanges? I hope that someone of us will get hold of a precision measuring tool and that we can find out.

cheers,
andreas


Last edited by kuuan on Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:24 pm; edited 3 times in total


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will check if I can borrow anything from work to measure the flanges.


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine are:

20/3.5 single coating serial 1163XX flanges slanted, cap tight fit
25/4.0 multi coating serial 1242XX flanges angular, cap loose fit
38/3.5 multi coating serial 1029XX flanges slanted, cap tight fit
40/1.4 multi coating serial 1354XX flanges slanted, cap loose fit
60/1.5 multi coating serial 1003XX flanges angular, cap tight fit
70/2.0 multi coating serial 2030XX flanges angular, cap tight fit

can't find my 38/1.8 ....

P.S.: We seem to have quite a mixed understanding here what single
and multi coating is and about the coating colors. My single coated ones
are amber (just one color), whereas my multi coated ones show various
colors: amber, purple, blue (hence the name).

Would you mind guys reworking your description please?? It very much
depends on which light is being used to check colors - daylight is best, LED
light does not work well.


Last edited by kds315* on Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:21 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kds315* wrote:
Mine are:
...

P.S.: We seem to have quite a mixed understanding here what single
and multi coating is and about the coating colors. My single coated ones
are amber (just one color), whereas my multi coated ones show various
colors: amber, purple, blue (hence the name).

Would you mind guys reworking your description please?? It very much depends
on which light is being used to check colors - daylight is best


hm.. Klaus can you give us a hint which light best to use for checking?
with my 'white' LED lamp I actually see more than yellow, at least some purple in every lens, though in some much more pronounced than in others, some have very clear yellow, blue and purple. ( and now corrected the info on the first f1.4/40 lens listed, though front lens is more yellow than on the other with the flashlight is still shows yellow, blue and purple )


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had just added that LED light does not work that well Andreas IMHO.
Tungsten works better, actually pretty well!


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kds315* wrote:
Had just added that LED light does not work that well Andreas IMHO.
Tungsten works better, actually pretty well!


ok, will check again with daylight

Alex H wrote:
I will check if I can borrow anything from work to measure the flanges.


great, thank's Smile


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember that coating is "colourless".

Lenses have lens elements with different thickness and refractive index coating to balance the color spectrum because the colors are broken at different wavelengths.

Therefore, in older optics we can see variations of color cast in different lens design.

Modern lenses look just greyish because they balance weights and refractive index for different wavelengths and thus get the colors to beat each other out Wink

This is a nice article to understand coating:

http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/index-166.html


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought we were finally over that.... SIGHHH

What we wanted here is to describe the reflected color visible of the lens coating(s) that members have.

AND PLEASE NOT START ANOTHER DISCUSSION WHAT THAT IS OR IS NOT OR HOW COATING WORKS.... Rolling Eyes


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kds315* wrote:
What we wanted here is to describe the reflected color visible of the lens coating(s) that members have.


Yes, but lens design is an important factor for the colour. My 42mm and my 60mm has different colours, but they are both blue'ish. I think it's better to stick with yellow and blue, because multi coated lens colours are probably different (blue, purple, amber) from lens to lens because of lens design.


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shocked thanks !
I missed the other threads ; I now understand why one of my 2 adapters doesn't work well, and why some caps are loose and the others aren't.


PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phenix jc wrote:
Shocked thanks !
I missed the other threads ; I now understand why one of my 2 adapters doesn't work well, and why some caps are loose and the others aren't.


good to know, your experience is consistent with what I try to point out:
Original caps fit tight or loose or even may not lock and fall off. There are adapters that don't fit all the lenses, others do. Mounts of Pen-F lenses are not all the same!
Not sure if we can make out patterns but possibly we can agree that the above are facts. People who buy Pen-F adapters be aware!

If F or FT we can say, if single or multicoated and how to tell certainly are other important questions.
more on coatings of Pen-F/FT lenses again in this other thread on coatings where the question of Pen-F lens mount variations originally had come up: http://forum.mflenses.com/lens-coating-yellow-vs-blue-t62340.html


PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like fun. I'll play. Very Happy

20/3.5 : FT : yellow : 1016xx : angular : cap fit tightly
25/4 : FT : yellow : 1213xx : angular : cap fit tightly
38/1.8 : F : yellow : 1311xx : angular : cap fit tightly
38/1.8 : FT : purple : 3754xx : slanted : cap fit loosely
38/2.8 non-pancake : F : yellow : 1078xx : slanted : cap fit loosely
38/2.8 pancake : FT : purple : 1073xx : slanted : cap fit loosely
40/1.4 : FT : purple : 1662xx : slanted : cap fit loosely
42/1.2 : FT : purple : 1021xx : slanted : cap fit tightly
60/1.5 : FT : purple : 1028xx : angular : cap fit tightly
70/2 : FT : yellow : 2027xx : angular : cap fit tightly
100/3.5 : F : yellow : 1212xx : angular : cap fit tightly

Please noted that my observation was not clear cut. The flange edges of 20 and 25 looked sharp to my poor necked eyes but clearly angled under loupe. Some coatings were clearly yellow or purple but in some cases like the pancake it was more yellow & purple.

The cap definitly play a part in the fitting. While one might loosely fit, another might not lock on at all.


Last edited by tao on Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:03 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

great collection Tao Smile - so I guess you will have a number of original rear caps too Wink
if so I am curious: Have you noticed that they fit more tight on some lenses and more loosely on others, and do you even have a lens or two on which rear caps won't lock? And do you use adapters, and if so, did you have one on which some lenses fit but others did not?

cheers, andreas


PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kuuan wrote:
Phenix jc wrote:
Shocked thanks !
I missed the other threads ; I now understand why one of my 2 adapters doesn't work well, and why some caps are loose and the others aren't.


good to know, your experience is consistent with what I try to point out:
Original caps fit tight or loose or even may not lock and fall off. There are adapters that don't fit all the lenses, others do. Mounts of Pen-F lenses are not all the same!
Not sure if we can make out patterns but possibly we can agree that the above are facts. People who buy Pen-F adapters be aware!

If F or FT we can say, if single or multicoated and how to tell certainly are other important questions.
more on coatings of Pen-F/FT lenses again in this other thread on coatings where the question of Pen-F lens mount variations originally had come up: http://forum.mflenses.com/lens-coating-yellow-vs-blue-t62340.html

Great find Kuuan. Even when we know, it's difficult to see.
I bought the inapropriate* adapter used, and oil was dripping from it (previous owner Confused ) ; I try to file it without success, but I was going on the wrong direction, now I (think I) have understood what I've to do !
(* works well with "slanted" and bad with "angular")

My lenses :
25/2.8 : MC ? : 103xx : slanted (blue/purple is difficult to see, but I think it's there)
25/4 : SC/yellow : 101xx : angular
38/1.8 : MC : 430xx : slanted
40/1.4 : MC : 146xx : slanted
100/3.5 : SC/yellow : 232xx : angular
150/4 : SC/yellow : 201xx : angular


PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

first I had an Adapter ( for Sony E mount ) from ebay seller Big_Is and it was too tight, it was impossible to mount my lens well enough to engage it's lever to make aperture work. So I reduced it until it fit. Then I received my second Pen-F lens but it was too loose on this reduced adapter, it wasn't useable. Must be that my first lens was 'angular' and my second 'slanted' and that this adapter in original state would have worked with the slanted.
Finally I bought another adapter, it came from seller "adplo", all my Pen-F lenses fit well!


PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have also noticed some difference, some sits tight on the adapter and some are looser.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kuuan wrote:
great collection Tao Smile - so I guess you will have a number of original rear caps too Wink
if so I am curious: Have you noticed that they fit more tight on some lenses and more loosely on others, and do you even have a lens or two on which rear caps won't lock? And do you use adapters, and if so, did you have one on which some lenses fit but others did not?

cheers, andreas


I have added more info on the cap fitting to my original message. The brand of my adapter is LITOOC. It fit all my lenses very well. I have just noticed that this adapter use three leaf springs to provide friction. This is different from my other cheap adapters which use slitted flanges.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should add that for the lenses that caps fit loosely, micro 4/3 caps actually works better than the original Pen caps.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you very much Tao for adding the cap-fit information in your original post and the adapter information.

my adapter on which all lenses fit well also has 'deep' leaf springs, I even have been wondering if the mounting parts of Pen-F lenses possibly even vary in thickness but that the strong leaf springs regardless would keep them all well fitted when mountd. I shall try to check later how the other adapter on which only the 'slanted' lenses fit is constructed ( hopefully still will find this part, had taken apart that adapter to use parts )

specially thank you very much for the info on using m4/3 caps! Hopefully they even will work on those lenses of mine of which the original caps fall off. Since the original rear caps are quite difficult to get hold off resp. sell for a very high price this information should prove very helpful for many!

cheers,
andreas


PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:30 pm    Post subject: Coating and lens fit Reply with quote

I think there are a lot of wrong informations in this thread.

Olympus Pen F/FT lens series was ceased before multicoating was common.
Look at the history.
Even the OM system (followed the Pen/FT line) was launched without multicoating.
For marketing reasons all lens makers announced multicoating as a feature when they started to use it. From Olympus, nothing was noticed when the Pen-F/FT line was sold.
The "MC" story of Pen/Pen FT lenses is nonsense.

The difference with brown/blueish coating was very common the late 1950s/1960s within the same company. It depends on more modern glass that was used in the 1960's. I.e. all my Canon RF lenses are mixed with brown and blueish coatings. Of course, all single-coated (although Canon sold the RF lens line well into the 1970's). Brown colored coating was invented later. First coated lenses all were blueish. My Nikon RF lenses (1950's) all were blueish, whereas the Nikon SLR lenses (1960's, new designs) mostly are brown colored (except the very early ones). The same with Pentax glass and even Komura. Olympus is no exception.

I see no real difference in my PenF / Pen FT lense line (most are Pen FT) or bayonet fitting. All with strong (tight) fitting.

I have one NEX adapter which is working with all (10?) of my lenses (but less strong fittings than with my cameras), and one which is crap, working with none of them.


PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did edit my original post as far as single/multicoating goes, and replaced the data with the main color of light reflections. However, I do see differences in the shape and thickness of the lens mounts, and one of my lenses did have issues with the adapters.

It would be much more useful, Frank, if You can prove us wrong with some real facts. I have my lenses in front of me, and I can see that they are slightly different. Your post is just words not supported by any data yet.