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Leitz Elmarit-R 2.8/135mm version 1 and 2 differences
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:59 pm    Post subject: Leitz Elmarit-R 2.8/135mm version 1 and 2 differences Reply with quote
UPDATE: Please read entire thread, the optical schemes are vice versa, my apologies.

Maybe for someone this is old news, but in an eBay auction I finally got the explanation, what is probably the real difference in optical scheme between first and second version of Elmarit.

Elmarit-R 2.8/135mm first version




Elmarit-R 2.8/135mm second version


As you can see, the differences are quite significant. Even Erwin Puts in his LLC states, that only thickness of first two front elements was changed between both versions, but the diagram on the box shows completely different front group and thicker rear element.

Last edited by BRunner on Thu May 19, 2011 10:10 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
And here is proof that the v2 of the lens did not start in 1968 Wink

Elmarit 2.8/135 with ORIGINAL matching box and invoice SN :2468270 build in 1971 and bought in 1972.










Common info in the net suggest that the v2 optical change happened in 1968 with the introduction of the 11211 version of the lens and that later 11211 E55 lens is optically identical.

From what I see this is fault !!

Last edited by Keysersoze27 on Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:13 pm; edited 3 times in total


PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
As far as I know is part # 11211 second version and was manufactured between 1968 and 1997. part # 11111 (first version) from 1964 to 1968.

Wink


PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rolf wrote:
As far as I know is part # 11211 second version and was manufactured between 1968 and 1997. part # 11111 (first version) from 1964 to 1968.

Wink


The are two 11211's (11111 is the first one) :

11211
2,8/135 Elmarit
till 2772618
1968-1976
built-in
14089
Serie 7 + 14161

11211(E55)
2,8/135 Elmarit
from 2772619
1976-199?
built-in
14089
E55 or Serie 7 + 14225
(source:Erwin Puts)

... in the pics I posted I clearly see 11211 lens of 1971 with old optical design.

In BRunner's original post, the lens is of the s/n272####(early 1974) batch and it too has the old optical design (v1) ...
Wink

I don't know why nobody have seen it until now, but the v2 optical design have started in late 1976 and s/n 2772619 and up Wink Wink Wink

Last edited by Keysersoze27 on Thu May 19, 2011 6:18 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Also from what I read in Erwin Puts "Leica Lens Compendium " :

Quote:
6.10.62.8/135, Elmarit(1) 1963, Elmarit(2) and Elmarit-R(1) 1964,
Elmarit-M (3)(1973) and Elmarit-R (2),1968

The first version of this lens appeared in 1963 for the M-system. A year later the version for the R-system was put on the market. This version had almost the same lens prescription as the first version: only the two separate front lenses had less thickness and different glasses were used.
Performance–wise there is hardly a difference. This second design has been used for both the M- and the R-systems, but is not exactly clear when the merger took place.
The same story does repeat itself with the last redesign, which first was introduced for the R-version and later incorporated into the M-system. Wider aperture versions have been researched for the R-system with good performance, but the days of the 135mm lens were assumed to be history.


He does not indicate when the optical v2 was introduced, and when he states about the different thickness of the front element , he is refering to the v1-M vs v1-R differences...


PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Keysersoze27 wrote:
And here is proof that the v2 of the lens did not start in 1968 but in 1976 Wink
Elmarit 2.8/135 with ORIGINAL matching box and invoice SN :2468270 build in 1971 and bought in 1972.

Until you disassemble your lens, you can't know which optical version exactly is.
I did this with mine (there was haze inside and cleaning was necessary) and draw this diagram before I discovered the diagram on Leica-wiki shown in my first post.



My lens has SN 236xx with Series VII filter. This corresponds to early second version for Leica R made in 1969.


PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
BRunner wrote:
Keysersoze27 wrote:
And here is proof that the v2 of the lens did not start in 1968 but in 1976 Wink
Elmarit 2.8/135 with ORIGINAL matching box and invoice SN :2468270 build in 1971 and bought in 1972.

Until you disassemble your lens, you can't know which optical version exactly is.
I did this with mine (there was haze inside and cleaning was necessary) and draw this diagram before I discovered the diagram on Leica-wiki shown in my first post.



My lens has SN 236xx with Series VII filter. This corresponds to early second version for Leica R made in 1969.


So how you explain the 2468270 lens I posted and the one you posted too from the ebay???


PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Now the thing gets more complicated.

This is a CLA from a latest -M mount version of the lens and Erwin Puts states its the same as v2 of -R ... Confused



First front element





Second front element


Shocked

Is it possible that this.... :



...is v1 and NOT v2

Last edited by Keysersoze27 on Thu May 19, 2011 7:26 pm; edited 2 times in total


PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Can you please upload images here? I can't see them (it is necessary to be registered on l-camera-forum).


PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ok (I edited the previous post)


PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you, now it works. And this image is from Erwin Puts "Leica-M Lenses - Their soul and secrets" from 2002... Confused



PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Neutral

I can post the original post on l-camera forum . The guy has a lens separation in his 2nd element His 2nd element is the big cement one Confused


PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



2.8/135 -R with S/N #2843xxx(1977) ... again the 2nd element is the big one !!!



11211 box with the other optical design.. this one is older that the previous ones, since it has the plastic bubble case and s/n 229xxxx on the box Wink







BRunner,

I think you must have a v1 lens build in 1969 Wink

Last edited by Keysersoze27 on Thu May 19, 2011 8:47 pm; edited 2 times in total


PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
This one in mine.

SN 3147165 dated 1981 but made in Canada. No optical design on both sides of the box but part no 11211 too. Weight 690 gr.



Wink


PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mine is s/n 2797738(1976) with no original box. I just weighted it on an precision electric scale without the cups at 731gr !!

From here :

http://www.photoethnography.com/ClassicCameras/Lens-R.html

v1=660gr
v2=730gr


PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Looks, like you are right...

Mine weights 648 grams without caps and I'm missing the additional System filter ring. The lens came in the plastic box.

I think that on the older box you posted I can read SN: 229xx, but I'm not sure...




Here is one 11 111 in older box with SN: 213xx






And here another wit SN: 261xx


PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


So this is the original v1 optical design not the v2.It's logical since the bigger 2nd element design(new v2) looks heavier and has more glass volume.Rolf's later E55 model has a lighter metalic body structure for production cost reasons Wink

Everybody also put the optical design change in 1968 but we seen that is not the case Wink

Last edited by Keysersoze27 on Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:08 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rolling Eyes

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/135mm_f/2.8_Elmarit-R_I

...why I didn't see it earlier Laughing


PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I agree. And when I study all the pictures, I see that all v1 lenses was made in Weltzar Germany (mine too), no matter they are 11111 or 11211 (maybe the PN has something to do with number of cams?).

The v2 lenses are all made in Leitz Canada and are 11211. But the switch has been made before s/n 2772619 - with this serial number Leitz switched to E55 filter ring.



To sum it up...

v1 has two separate front lenses and was probably manufactured only in Leitz Weltzar Germany.

That explains this quote from Puts LLC
Quote:
This version had almost the same lens prescription as the first version: only the two separate front lenses had less thickness and different glasses were used.


v2 is the version with second cemented doublet and was probably made only in Leitz Canada factory

The switch from v1 to v2 carried out probably ~1970 and we can narrow it now between serial numbers 2363985 (mine) and 2468270 (from eBay).

If I'm right the easiest way to quickly distinguish v1 from v2 is to check where the lens was manufactured, v1=Weltzar and v2=Canada.


PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Keysersoze27 wrote:
Rolling Eyes
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/135mm_f/2.8_Elmarit-R_I
...why I didn't see it earlier Laughing

The wiki on l-camera-forum is not error free... they used image of APO-Elmarit-R 180 for ELmarit-R 180 v2, so I trusted Erwin Puts Leica-M Lenses pdf from official Leica pages...

Keysersoze27 wrote:
In BRunner's original post, the lens is of the s/n272####(early 1974) batch and it too has the old optical design (v1) ...

From the low resolution I interpreted the SN as 212xx. As this corresponded to Puts Leica-M pdf and serials on l-camera wiki....

Anyway, thank you for correcting my mistake. This proves, that you can't trust anything on Internet Wink


PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
So now you just need to buy a v2 one to compare it with the C/Y 135 one and all the others on your mega 135 test . Razz Laughing
Just kidding...

Apparently there is a wide open performance difference between the two as I read in the net. Don't know about other differences(contrast, infinity perfomance e.t.c)????

My copy is very sharp wide open .....


quick shot v2 2.8/135 @2.8




100% crop 5Dii's Standar profile sharpness, No PP at all


PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes a real underrated lens.





Wink


PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nice shots Rolf

does anyone here use a 135/2.8 elmarit M ? I cant tell if mine is out of calibration or Im not holding the camera steady enough ( its a heavy lens) I guess I could use a tripod next time..............

RTW
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