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Langstrum
Joined: 16 Feb 2014 Posts: 351
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Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 12:30 pm Post subject: Jupiter-13 125mm f/1.5 aviation lens, any information? |
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Langstrum wrote:
I've seen this lens for sale sometimes but there is not much information that I can find, except that it was a clone of Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar 125/1.5 and can be used for large format cameras. The one I'm following has M39 mount, so probably it can be easily adapted for mirrorless cameras, but I suspect that the mount was modified. I read from another source that this lens doesn't have focusing ring, it's designed for shooting at infinity only. Is there anything else about this lens?
_________________
Camera: Sony A7 mark III, A6300
AF Lenses:
Canon EF 50/1.8; EF 200/2.8 L, EF 200/1.8 L, EF 300/4 L Sony E mount SEL 50/1.8 OSS, SEL 16/2.8 Fuji X mount XF 35/1.4 R
MF Lenses: Peleng MC 8/3.5, 17/2.8 Samyang 14/T3.1, 35/T1.5, TS 24/3.5 ED, 85/T1.5, Polar 85/1.4 Auto Revuenon 28/2.8; MC 50/1.4 Vega11U 50/2.8 Carl Zeiss Tessar 50/2.8 (exakta mount) Auto Chinon 50/1.9 Zenitar ME1 50/1.7 Sears Auto Sears 55/1.4; Sears 135/2.8 Auto Yashinon DX 50/1.4; Tomioka 50/1.2 SMC Pentax 50/1.7; 50/1.4 Canon FD 50/1.4 S.S.C; 55/1.2 S.S.C; FD 50/1.2 L; FD 85/1.2 L; 85/1.2 S.S.C Aspherical; FD 80-200/4 L 300/2.8 S.S.C Fluorite FD 300/2.8 L FD 200/1.8 LCosina-S 50/1.2 Helios Helios 44 Chrome f/22, 44-2, 44-3, 44M-4, 44M-7 (58/2), Helios-40 85/1.5 Jupiter Jupiter-9 85/2; Jupiter-37A 135/3.5; Jupiter-21M 200/4 Nikon Ai 105/2.5 Tairs-3S 300/4.5
Voigtlander 15/4.5 Aspherical; Ultron 35/1.7
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BurstMox
Joined: 04 Dec 2011 Posts: 1998 Location: France
Expire: 2016-08-02
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Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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BurstMox wrote:
The lens on the photo has focus ring, adapted.
Original lens is large format (9x12) lens made by KMZ. They produced a few like this. Purpose is not really known. I think aerial photo.
But don't pay the price the seller ask, that's just insane. Some days ago, I found one, the guy accepted for 100 euros, but then he told me the rear lens is missing . Average price should be around 400-500 euros on international market, not because it's a great lens (hard to find samples), but because it's rare and is f1.5 for 125mm... _________________ Pierre
sovietlenses.fr
Soviet lenses Facebook group |
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Langstrum
Joined: 16 Feb 2014 Posts: 351
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Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 4:06 am Post subject: |
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Langstrum wrote:
BurstMox wrote: |
The lens on the photo has focus ring, adapted.
Original lens is large format (9x12) lens made by KMZ. They produced a few like this. Purpose is not really known. I think aerial photo.
But don't pay the price the seller ask, that's just insane. Some days ago, I found one, the guy accepted for 100 euros, but then he told me the rear lens is missing . Average price should be around 400-500 euros on international market, not because it's a great lens (hard to find samples), but because it's rare and is f1.5 for 125mm... |
Thank you for the information. I surely won't pay that much money for this lens, but I want to know more about it so if I can find a good deal, I can decide easily. What's left to be found is just photo sample _________________
Camera: Sony A7 mark III, A6300
AF Lenses:
Canon EF 50/1.8; EF 200/2.8 L, EF 200/1.8 L, EF 300/4 L Sony E mount SEL 50/1.8 OSS, SEL 16/2.8 Fuji X mount XF 35/1.4 R
MF Lenses: Peleng MC 8/3.5, 17/2.8 Samyang 14/T3.1, 35/T1.5, TS 24/3.5 ED, 85/T1.5, Polar 85/1.4 Auto Revuenon 28/2.8; MC 50/1.4 Vega11U 50/2.8 Carl Zeiss Tessar 50/2.8 (exakta mount) Auto Chinon 50/1.9 Zenitar ME1 50/1.7 Sears Auto Sears 55/1.4; Sears 135/2.8 Auto Yashinon DX 50/1.4; Tomioka 50/1.2 SMC Pentax 50/1.7; 50/1.4 Canon FD 50/1.4 S.S.C; 55/1.2 S.S.C; FD 50/1.2 L; FD 85/1.2 L; 85/1.2 S.S.C Aspherical; FD 80-200/4 L 300/2.8 S.S.C Fluorite FD 300/2.8 L FD 200/1.8 LCosina-S 50/1.2 Helios Helios 44 Chrome f/22, 44-2, 44-3, 44M-4, 44M-7 (58/2), Helios-40 85/1.5 Jupiter Jupiter-9 85/2; Jupiter-37A 135/3.5; Jupiter-21M 200/4 Nikon Ai 105/2.5 Tairs-3S 300/4.5
Voigtlander 15/4.5 Aspherical; Ultron 35/1.7
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kds315*
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 16541 Location: Weinheim, Germany
Expire: 2021-03-09
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Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:43 am Post subject: |
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kds315* wrote:
Any sample images using that lens?? _________________ Klaus - Admin
"S'il vient a point, me souviendra" [Thomas Bohier (1460-1523)]
http://www.macrolenses.de for macro and special lens info
http://www.pbase.com/kds315/uv_photos for UV Images and lens/filter info
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/albums my albums using various lenses
http://photographyoftheinvisibleworld.blogspot.com/ my UV BLOG
http://www.travelmeetsfood.com/blog Food + Travel BLOG
https://galeriafotografia.com Architecture + Drone photography
Currently most FAV lens(es):
X80QF f3.2/80mm
Hypergon f11/26mm
ELCAN UV f5.6/52mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f4/60mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f2/62mm
Lomo Уфар-12 f2.5/41mm
Lomo Зуфар-2 f4.0/350mm
Lomo ZIKAR-1A f1.2/100mm
Nikon UV Nikkor f4.5/105mm
Zeiss UV-Sonnar f4.3/105mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f1.8/45mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f4.1/94mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f2.8/100mm
Steinheil Quarzobjektiv f1.8/50mm
Pentax Quartz Takumar f3.5/85mm
Carl Zeiss Jena UV-Objektiv f4/60mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha II f1.1/90mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha I f2.8/200mm
COASTAL OPTICS f4/60mm UV-VIS-IR Apo
COASTAL OPTICS f4.5/105mm UV-Micro-Apo
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f4.5/85mm
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f5.6/300mm
Rodenstock UV-Rodagon f5.6/60mm + 105mm + 150mm
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BurstMox
Joined: 04 Dec 2011 Posts: 1998 Location: France
Expire: 2016-08-02
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Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:47 am Post subject: |
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BurstMox wrote:
kds315* wrote: |
Any sample images using that lens?? |
http://lens-club.ru/gallery/lens/c_1540.html _________________ Pierre
sovietlenses.fr
Soviet lenses Facebook group |
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kds315*
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 16541 Location: Weinheim, Germany
Expire: 2021-03-09
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Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:56 am Post subject: |
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kds315* wrote:
Thanks Pierre! Guess a bit too expensive and too heavy _________________ Klaus - Admin
"S'il vient a point, me souviendra" [Thomas Bohier (1460-1523)]
http://www.macrolenses.de for macro and special lens info
http://www.pbase.com/kds315/uv_photos for UV Images and lens/filter info
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/albums my albums using various lenses
http://photographyoftheinvisibleworld.blogspot.com/ my UV BLOG
http://www.travelmeetsfood.com/blog Food + Travel BLOG
https://galeriafotografia.com Architecture + Drone photography
Currently most FAV lens(es):
X80QF f3.2/80mm
Hypergon f11/26mm
ELCAN UV f5.6/52mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f4/60mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f2/62mm
Lomo Уфар-12 f2.5/41mm
Lomo Зуфар-2 f4.0/350mm
Lomo ZIKAR-1A f1.2/100mm
Nikon UV Nikkor f4.5/105mm
Zeiss UV-Sonnar f4.3/105mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f1.8/45mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f4.1/94mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f2.8/100mm
Steinheil Quarzobjektiv f1.8/50mm
Pentax Quartz Takumar f3.5/85mm
Carl Zeiss Jena UV-Objektiv f4/60mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha II f1.1/90mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha I f2.8/200mm
COASTAL OPTICS f4/60mm UV-VIS-IR Apo
COASTAL OPTICS f4.5/105mm UV-Micro-Apo
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f4.5/85mm
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f5.6/300mm
Rodenstock UV-Rodagon f5.6/60mm + 105mm + 150mm
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BurstMox
Joined: 04 Dec 2011 Posts: 1998 Location: France
Expire: 2016-08-02
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Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:16 am Post subject: |
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BurstMox wrote:
kds315* wrote: |
Thanks Pierre! Guess a bit too expensive and too heavy |
I have one (but not usable yet), it's also quite large, a bit like a giant Mir-20. _________________ Pierre
sovietlenses.fr
Soviet lenses Facebook group |
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kds315*
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 16541 Location: Weinheim, Germany
Expire: 2021-03-09
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Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:23 am Post subject: |
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kds315* wrote:
BurstMox wrote: |
kds315* wrote: |
Thanks Pierre! Guess a bit too expensive and too heavy |
I have one (but not usable yet), it's also quite large, a bit like a giant Mir-20. |
Hope you can find the missing lens element(s) and make it work again!! _________________ Klaus - Admin
"S'il vient a point, me souviendra" [Thomas Bohier (1460-1523)]
http://www.macrolenses.de for macro and special lens info
http://www.pbase.com/kds315/uv_photos for UV Images and lens/filter info
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/albums my albums using various lenses
http://photographyoftheinvisibleworld.blogspot.com/ my UV BLOG
http://www.travelmeetsfood.com/blog Food + Travel BLOG
https://galeriafotografia.com Architecture + Drone photography
Currently most FAV lens(es):
X80QF f3.2/80mm
Hypergon f11/26mm
ELCAN UV f5.6/52mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f4/60mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f2/62mm
Lomo Уфар-12 f2.5/41mm
Lomo Зуфар-2 f4.0/350mm
Lomo ZIKAR-1A f1.2/100mm
Nikon UV Nikkor f4.5/105mm
Zeiss UV-Sonnar f4.3/105mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f1.8/45mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f4.1/94mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f2.8/100mm
Steinheil Quarzobjektiv f1.8/50mm
Pentax Quartz Takumar f3.5/85mm
Carl Zeiss Jena UV-Objektiv f4/60mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha II f1.1/90mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha I f2.8/200mm
COASTAL OPTICS f4/60mm UV-VIS-IR Apo
COASTAL OPTICS f4.5/105mm UV-Micro-Apo
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f4.5/85mm
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f5.6/300mm
Rodenstock UV-Rodagon f5.6/60mm + 105mm + 150mm
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xatnoc
Joined: 10 Jul 2013 Posts: 3
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Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:32 pm Post subject: The original and the two clones on the kitchen table..... |
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xatnoc wrote:
I hope to be able to make pictures with the Jupiter-13 soon and to compare it to the Sonnar. The one on the left was purchased in M42 mount, so this should enable a test.
#1
Last edited by xatnoc on Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kds315*
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 16541 Location: Weinheim, Germany
Expire: 2021-03-09
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Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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kds315* wrote:
_________________ Klaus - Admin
"S'il vient a point, me souviendra" [Thomas Bohier (1460-1523)]
http://www.macrolenses.de for macro and special lens info
http://www.pbase.com/kds315/uv_photos for UV Images and lens/filter info
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/albums my albums using various lenses
http://photographyoftheinvisibleworld.blogspot.com/ my UV BLOG
http://www.travelmeetsfood.com/blog Food + Travel BLOG
https://galeriafotografia.com Architecture + Drone photography
Currently most FAV lens(es):
X80QF f3.2/80mm
Hypergon f11/26mm
ELCAN UV f5.6/52mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f4/60mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f2/62mm
Lomo Уфар-12 f2.5/41mm
Lomo Зуфар-2 f4.0/350mm
Lomo ZIKAR-1A f1.2/100mm
Nikon UV Nikkor f4.5/105mm
Zeiss UV-Sonnar f4.3/105mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f1.8/45mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f4.1/94mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f2.8/100mm
Steinheil Quarzobjektiv f1.8/50mm
Pentax Quartz Takumar f3.5/85mm
Carl Zeiss Jena UV-Objektiv f4/60mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha II f1.1/90mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha I f2.8/200mm
COASTAL OPTICS f4/60mm UV-VIS-IR Apo
COASTAL OPTICS f4.5/105mm UV-Micro-Apo
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f4.5/85mm
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f5.6/300mm
Rodenstock UV-Rodagon f5.6/60mm + 105mm + 150mm
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BurstMox
Joined: 04 Dec 2011 Posts: 1998 Location: France
Expire: 2016-08-02
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Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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BurstMox wrote:
_________________ Pierre
sovietlenses.fr
Soviet lenses Facebook group |
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Langstrum
Joined: 16 Feb 2014 Posts: 351
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Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:39 am Post subject: |
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Langstrum wrote:
Very nice, I can't wait to see your photos _________________
Camera: Sony A7 mark III, A6300
AF Lenses:
Canon EF 50/1.8; EF 200/2.8 L, EF 200/1.8 L, EF 300/4 L Sony E mount SEL 50/1.8 OSS, SEL 16/2.8 Fuji X mount XF 35/1.4 R
MF Lenses: Peleng MC 8/3.5, 17/2.8 Samyang 14/T3.1, 35/T1.5, TS 24/3.5 ED, 85/T1.5, Polar 85/1.4 Auto Revuenon 28/2.8; MC 50/1.4 Vega11U 50/2.8 Carl Zeiss Tessar 50/2.8 (exakta mount) Auto Chinon 50/1.9 Zenitar ME1 50/1.7 Sears Auto Sears 55/1.4; Sears 135/2.8 Auto Yashinon DX 50/1.4; Tomioka 50/1.2 SMC Pentax 50/1.7; 50/1.4 Canon FD 50/1.4 S.S.C; 55/1.2 S.S.C; FD 50/1.2 L; FD 85/1.2 L; 85/1.2 S.S.C Aspherical; FD 80-200/4 L 300/2.8 S.S.C Fluorite FD 300/2.8 L FD 200/1.8 LCosina-S 50/1.2 Helios Helios 44 Chrome f/22, 44-2, 44-3, 44M-4, 44M-7 (58/2), Helios-40 85/1.5 Jupiter Jupiter-9 85/2; Jupiter-37A 135/3.5; Jupiter-21M 200/4 Nikon Ai 105/2.5 Tairs-3S 300/4.5
Voigtlander 15/4.5 Aspherical; Ultron 35/1.7
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sergtum
Joined: 14 Nov 2016 Posts: 735
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Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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sergtum wrote:
one of the collectors of our city today put up for sale such an objective (Jupiter-13). I doubt. what should I do???????????????? to buy or not to buy? |
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kansalliskalaCafe
Joined: 23 Jul 2015 Posts: 602 Location: South Finland, countryside
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Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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kansalliskalaCafe wrote:
buy now - think later _________________ (my normal account password still on another computer) |
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sergtum
Joined: 14 Nov 2016 Posts: 735
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Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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sergtum wrote:
kansalliskalaCafe wrote: |
buy now - think later |
Thanks!
But!
such an idea is on the left side of my head. the right side screams - buy Zeiss ... |
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BurstMox
Joined: 04 Dec 2011 Posts: 1998 Location: France
Expire: 2016-08-02
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Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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BurstMox wrote:
It depend of the price _________________ Pierre
sovietlenses.fr
Soviet lenses Facebook group |
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sergtum
Joined: 14 Nov 2016 Posts: 735
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Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:16 am Post subject: |
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sergtum wrote:
BurstMox wrote: |
It depend of the price |
~170USD
But 1 - the lens is not in perfect condition
But 2 - the lens has a helicoid |
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kds315*
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 16541 Location: Weinheim, Germany
Expire: 2021-03-09
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Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:55 am Post subject: |
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kds315* wrote:
Our member Pierre once told me that is is not very good optically,
as I also had an opportunity to buy one, once. Decided against it. _________________ Klaus - Admin
"S'il vient a point, me souviendra" [Thomas Bohier (1460-1523)]
http://www.macrolenses.de for macro and special lens info
http://www.pbase.com/kds315/uv_photos for UV Images and lens/filter info
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/albums my albums using various lenses
http://photographyoftheinvisibleworld.blogspot.com/ my UV BLOG
http://www.travelmeetsfood.com/blog Food + Travel BLOG
https://galeriafotografia.com Architecture + Drone photography
Currently most FAV lens(es):
X80QF f3.2/80mm
Hypergon f11/26mm
ELCAN UV f5.6/52mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f4/60mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f2/62mm
Lomo Уфар-12 f2.5/41mm
Lomo Зуфар-2 f4.0/350mm
Lomo ZIKAR-1A f1.2/100mm
Nikon UV Nikkor f4.5/105mm
Zeiss UV-Sonnar f4.3/105mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f1.8/45mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f4.1/94mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f2.8/100mm
Steinheil Quarzobjektiv f1.8/50mm
Pentax Quartz Takumar f3.5/85mm
Carl Zeiss Jena UV-Objektiv f4/60mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha II f1.1/90mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha I f2.8/200mm
COASTAL OPTICS f4/60mm UV-VIS-IR Apo
COASTAL OPTICS f4.5/105mm UV-Micro-Apo
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f4.5/85mm
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f5.6/300mm
Rodenstock UV-Rodagon f5.6/60mm + 105mm + 150mm
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BurstMox
Joined: 04 Dec 2011 Posts: 1998 Location: France
Expire: 2016-08-02
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Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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BurstMox wrote:
But 170$ is not bad. If I were in your place, I would have bought it .
Quality is not bad still. _________________ Pierre
sovietlenses.fr
Soviet lenses Facebook group |
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sergtum
Joined: 14 Nov 2016 Posts: 735
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Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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sergtum wrote:
Guys, thank You so much. Your authoritative opinion is extremely important to me. Thank You.
I will decide on buying (or not buying) the lens after I see it, after I hold it in my hands. |
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sergtum
Joined: 14 Nov 2016 Posts: 735
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Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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sergtum wrote:
Today I held the lens in my hands. the lens was made in the late 50's (KMZ, red P). The lens has an original helicoid with M42 thread. The helicoid has a connection for mounting to a tripod and there are brackets for attaching the strap. the lens is gorgeous, but I decided not to buy it. it's too heavy and too big for me and for my camera.
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kds315*
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 16541 Location: Weinheim, Germany
Expire: 2021-03-09
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Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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kds315* wrote:
_________________ Klaus - Admin
"S'il vient a point, me souviendra" [Thomas Bohier (1460-1523)]
http://www.macrolenses.de for macro and special lens info
http://www.pbase.com/kds315/uv_photos for UV Images and lens/filter info
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/albums my albums using various lenses
http://photographyoftheinvisibleworld.blogspot.com/ my UV BLOG
http://www.travelmeetsfood.com/blog Food + Travel BLOG
https://galeriafotografia.com Architecture + Drone photography
Currently most FAV lens(es):
X80QF f3.2/80mm
Hypergon f11/26mm
ELCAN UV f5.6/52mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f4/60mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f2/62mm
Lomo Уфар-12 f2.5/41mm
Lomo Зуфар-2 f4.0/350mm
Lomo ZIKAR-1A f1.2/100mm
Nikon UV Nikkor f4.5/105mm
Zeiss UV-Sonnar f4.3/105mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f1.8/45mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f4.1/94mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f2.8/100mm
Steinheil Quarzobjektiv f1.8/50mm
Pentax Quartz Takumar f3.5/85mm
Carl Zeiss Jena UV-Objektiv f4/60mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha II f1.1/90mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha I f2.8/200mm
COASTAL OPTICS f4/60mm UV-VIS-IR Apo
COASTAL OPTICS f4.5/105mm UV-Micro-Apo
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f4.5/85mm
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f5.6/300mm
Rodenstock UV-Rodagon f5.6/60mm + 105mm + 150mm
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kansalliskalaCafe
Joined: 23 Jul 2015 Posts: 602 Location: South Finland, countryside
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Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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kansalliskalaCafe wrote:
sergtum wrote: |
it's too heavy and too big for me and for my camera.
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that's a 5D right?
could be too big for your camera _________________ (my normal account password still on another computer) |
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sergtum
Joined: 14 Nov 2016 Posts: 735
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Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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sergtum wrote:
this is the camera of the seller. my camera is sony a7. |
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kansalliskalaCafe
Joined: 23 Jul 2015 Posts: 602 Location: South Finland, countryside
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Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:54 am Post subject: |
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kansalliskalaCafe wrote:
sergtum wrote: |
this is the camera of the seller. my camera is sony a7. |
yes, if the 5D looks so small with that lens, then a7 would be ergonomically impossible
I'm not sure if it even fits, adapter or m42 is of course longer than canon but you would have to squeeze you fingers between body and helicoid? _________________ (my normal account password still on another computer) |
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