Home
SearchSearch MemberlistMemberlist RegisterRegister ProfileProfile Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages Log inLog in

Hazy lens element, not responding to normal cleaning methods
View previous topic :: View next topic  


PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 12:17 am    Post subject: Hazy lens element, not responding to normal cleaning methods Reply with quote

I bought a Panagor 85-200mm 3.8 for like $10 off an auction site. I believe it's a clone of the Vivitar 85-200mm 3.8. The seller warned that it was hazey, and it definitely is. Photos taken with it are too soft and lacking in contrast.

It was surprisingly easy to dissemble though, and I managed to get to the offending element pretty easily. All other elements are clean and clear.

I tried cleaning it with diluted bleach and a q-tip and this appeared to remove the haze but once the bleach was wiped off the haze slowly crept back. I then tried isopropyl alcohol which didn't work at all, followed by a soak in bleach for a few hours which had the same result as the q-tip application.

Here's a photo of the haze:



Does anyone know what it is and whether it's cleanable? Thanks.


PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 2:04 am    Post subject: Re: Hazy lens element, not responding to normal cleaning met Reply with quote

OohPancakes wrote:
I bought a Panagor 85-200mm 3.8 for like $10 off an auction site. I believe it's a clone of the Vivitar 85-200mm 3.8. The seller warned that it was hazey, and it definitely is. Photos taken with it are too soft and lacking in contrast.

It was surprisingly easy to dissemble though, and I managed to get to the offending element pretty easily. All other elements are clean and clear.

I tried cleaning it with diluted bleach and a q-tip and this appeared to remove the haze but once the bleach was wiped off the haze slowly crept back. I then tried isopropyl alcohol which didn't work at all, followed by a soak in bleach for a few hours which had the same result as the q-tip application.

Here's a photo of the haze:



Does anyone know what it is and whether it's cleanable? Thanks.

Welcome to the forum,your first post can not contain links or images ,but from now on you are fine.Hopefully someone may be able to assist you with your problem.


PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen this kind of haze while trying to fix quite a few lenses, unfortunately i haven't been able to clean the glass, i work in a lab and i have tried very strong acids and very strong solvents, long dipping on them also and nothing ever has worked not even a slight reduction of the haze.

As i said before this to me looks like one of them and i am pretty sure you won't be able to clean it, i could be wrong of course and if you manage to do it please LET US KNOW how you did it.

Good Luck


PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where is the location of the haze? It will be cement degradation if it is inside the cemented element. There is no way to fix it unless you re-cement the elements.


PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

inombrable wrote:
I have seen this kind of haze while trying to fix quite a few lenses, unfortunately i haven't been able to clean the glass, i work in a lab and i have tried very strong acids and very strong solvents, long dipping on them also and nothing ever has worked not even a slight reduction of the haze.

As i said before this to me looks like one of them and i am pretty sure you won't be able to clean it, i could be wrong of course and if you manage to do it please LET US KNOW how you did it.

Good Luck


That's not what I wanted to hear Sad

I think the next step would be something harsher like maybe silver polish. I feel like the haze MAY have been reduced a bit from my cleaning so far but I could be imagining it. Might try another soak in bleach anyway.

calvin83 wrote:
Where is the location of the haze? It will be cement degradation if it is inside the cemented element. There is no way to fix it unless you re-cement the elements.


It's definitely on the outside because it does respond to cleaning. I can rub it off even with just water, but it always comes back.


PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also have had same issue and no success in cleaning.
Once I had tried to use metal polisher, quite some time rubbing with it did not have any visable effect. In the end I had left the glass soaking in the metal cleaner, kind of forgot to check earlier, and after some 15 hours it did have an effect: it then was even more milky..etched..


PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cerium Oxide finest graded polish did the trick for me


PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cigarette ash is one of the abrasives used on lenses, I've never tried it. I have got a dead and very hazy lens at home so I'll experiment when I get back.


PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lloydy wrote:
Cigarette ash is one of the abrasives used on lenses, I've never tried it. I have got a dead and very hazy lens at home so I'll experiment when I get back.


Wow that's surprising. Keen to hear the results...


PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried cigarette ash (Zeiss reccomendation) on a Canon FD 300/2.8L with fungus to remove the residuals. But it dit not work.
With lens polishing agent for car windows it was very easy to remove lens coatings and defects.
This car window polish agent is easy to buy and ready to use, pure cerium oxid could be hard to get in small amounts (I dont need 25kg).


PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had a similar looking problem, which was solved as described below:

Apply a couple of wd40 drops on damaged surface, distribute evenly.

Lens still looks hasy - soak it in WD40 and left in airtight container for 2-3 days. You should then see your "haze" flaking around. If that does not helps, you could try primer for PVC pipes, but don't do it in plastic jar, use glass one with airtight lid - primer can be fatal if inhaled for a long time and it's vapour is easy to ignite.

Lens looks a bit less hasy when WD40 applied - bad news, you have surface etching, only professional re-polishing will help.


PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's surface etching. The fungus has gone but this is the mess it leaves behind. I have a similar problem. And also on the rear element.


PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could it be glass disease? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_disease

I have that on some of my cheap drink glasses - it is unrepairable. Never heard about it on lenses, though.


PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mick232 wrote:
Could it be glass disease? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_disease

I have that on some of my cheap drink glasses - it is unrepairable. Never heard about it on lenses, though.


That make sense, when I've tried cleaning haze I have always thought it was the surface of the glass and not something on the surface.

Glass certainly degrades, many years ago when I was renovating this old house I needed a lot of glass for the old small paned sash windows, and I had little money. But I knew that a large tomato growing operation changed the hothouse glass every few years and they had crates of old glass just sitting there, it was free to anyone who wanted it. So I had my glass. But I had to sort through tons of the stuff to find sheets with no surface degradation. It was worst where the sheets of glass had been overlapped as they lay in the hothouse, obviously trapping moisture and maybe acids from the atmosphere inside the overlap. The overlapped surfaces were etched and completely ruined.
So perhaps the porosity of glass, even though it is extremely low, is the cause of the fogging we see on lenses? Could it be that lenses that have suffered condensation and taken a long time to dry begin to absorb moisture are hazed?


PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polish with Cerium Oxide (finest grade). Done that and worked for me, but lots of patience and elbow grease needed Wink


PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kds315* wrote:
Polish with Cerium Oxide (finest grade). Done that and worked for me, but lots of patience and elbow grease needed Wink


Hello Dr. Klaus! Very Happy

So I have an Aero Ektar that I disassembled and un-cemented a couple of the groups. one of the 4 lenses has haze/clouding that was inside of the cemented surface that is proving difficult to clean. Tried naphtha, 97% isopropyl alcohol, and toothpaste. Seems like it's gotten a tiny bit better, but still some hazing persists.

Just ordered Cerium Oxide (http://www.amazon.com/Gordon-Glass-Cerium-Oxide-Oz/dp/B007KOC19C/ref=pd_sbs_auto_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=12K6BR57NQA5JPG2E0R3) in the hopes that this may do the trick.

Now, did you use like a drill/dremel tool and a felt tip, or did you do the polishing manually with microfibre or something? Application dry or with water/slurry?

Thanks!


PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is what the rear element of a "wundertute" 500mm f8 long tp looked like (looks worse than it does when looking through the element held to the light because the flash is catching and highlighting the haze).



The haze proved to be on the interior surface. I tried the usual things including acetone but nothing doing. Pics didn't look great, this crop of the castle is by way of example but not definitive because it was so windy I had to hold the lens on the bean bag with a finger or two so lens shake is an issue though I did get 1/1600 by bumping the asa to 800. Pentax K-r, RAW.



However when I mentioned the problem to my neighbour he suggested a quick polish with some jewelers rouge on his rotary polisher.



As you can see that has certainly done the job on the haze. But has taking off a micron affected the IQ? I haven't got back to the castle but the channel marker in the estuary is a regular test subject. From RAW, f8, f16



The improvement stopping down to f16 is a natural sign of a lens that isn't quite right wide open. But I can't say it wasn't like that to begin with!


PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just received a cheaply purchased Vivitar 100-300 f/5 Close Focusing zoom.
It has fungus on the front elements and one of the rear ones. The front one was a straight forward cleaning. But the rear element was housed in an assembly of mounts and tube with thread locker. After breaking it free with acetone, I found an inner element that wasn't exposed to any outside source, was the offending piece.

Strange, it looked like fungus, star/corral patterns. But the rest of the elements are spotless.

It wouldn't respond to any liquid treatments. In the end, I concluded it was etched into the glass. How it became this way is a mystery, sealed, only affected element, on the surface, and where the lens contacted the mount, it wasn't etched, so I have a clear ring of what the glass should look like. Past this ring, the lens surface has no contact, and the haze continues.
Very odd.

I can only surmise that it either got contaminated prior to assembly, or the process or coating used would damage the lens over time.

The lens was ruined anyway, so I got some Mothers aluminum wheel polish as a last ditch effort. It has a mild abrasive and oxalic acid.
It worked well enough to remove the hazy etched surface and smooth out the patterns until they don't show when I shine a flashlight through the element. But the pattern is still faintly there, so there is still a bit more depth to go.

I am not trying to recommend this as a solution, just my experience with a ruined lens.
Cerium oxide sounds the best, and I think I will get some to continue polishing till the element is as clear as the ring. At least I have that to gauge my progress.

UPDATE:

I recalled a cheap source for cerium oxide. For those in the USA, Harbor Freight carries a windshield polishing kit for less than $10.
It comes with accessories to use a power drill to polish glass. And a nice 8 oz. container of red oxide.
I followed the instructions for hand-polishing. Used a piece of microfiber lens cloth and filtered water. After an hour of effort, the element looks usable again.

There is no way to control the amount of glass removed or how consistent across the element. Whether it's good enough for photography, I will find out once I the lens is reassembled. Wink

UPDATE 2:

Well, I managed to get the Vivitar 100-300 f/5 back together, and initial test shots indoors looked promising. But next day in bright sunlight, a full battery of shots were taken at numerous focal lengths and stops. Pixel peeping at full size reveals the lens just can't achieve that last step of tack sharp focus. My results look better than marcusBMG's above, but I also don't know if this old lens design never was able to focus sharply as well. I foolishly forgot to take before samples when the affected lens arrived. (Note to self: must remember to do this for every lens!!)

I have another sample with a fixed Nikon mount arriving. So I will have a copy for comparison.

The lens is repaired to a level good enough for casual shooting, not for crops and sharp focus photography. :-\

Neighborhood shots approximately 50 feet away, Fotga Minolta to Sony E mount adapter, shutter 1/400-1/500, ISO of 100-200, shot at 300mm f/8 or f/11...





At infinity, plane was 100-200 meters away. I got sharper results from a point and shoot at an airshow!




This one was taken wide open at f/5 and 300mm. Not usable at f/5.