Enlarger lenses at infinity

danfromm · Joined: 04 Sep 2011 Posts: 576

Ray, thanks for the reply. It prompted a few questions.

Which Apo-Nikkors did you try? I ask because there are two Apo-Nikkor design types, tessar and dialyte. Reports on the tessar types aren't uniformly favorable, reports on the dialytes are. A list of Apo-Nikkors that gives design type is at http://www.galerie-photo.com/apo-process-nikkors-en.html

I'm ancient, still shoot film, haven't been willing to buy a really good digital rig. But I try to pay attention to what those who are braver or richer than I am say and am puzzled by what they (including you) say about CA and diffraction. I'd appreciate further explanations or direction to them. No need for you to type what's been typed already.

What bothers me about digital types' discussions of CA is that they assert that lenses which don't have color fringing problems on film have them on digital. I can't tell whether they're slagging the lenses or their sensors, suspect sensor issues. Any insights?

What bothers me about discussions of diffraction is claims that pixel size somehow affects it. I can understand how pixel size limits the best resolution a sensor can give, have problems with the idea that it has anything to do with a lens' performance. Understand, I've shot USAF 1951 targets at a range of effective apertures with diffraction limited lenses, have seen the bars' images on film broaden until they merge and the contrast between bar and space go away as the lens is stopped down. So I do know at first hand what diffraction does.

Directing me to good explanations is as good as typing them yourself.

ForenSeil · Joined: 15 Apr 2011 Posts: 2726 Location: Kiel, Germany.

kryss · Expire: 2017-09-18

Wollensak Raptar 162mm f4.5 on bellows, great at infinity down. There are photos on forum by cooltouch(Michael)

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

Interesting about the G-Claron. I would use it at f16-f22 so it should perform okay at infinity, but it's a bit too long for me, it would be more useful on 9x12 or 4x5 than on 6x9 which I am using.

Soon I'm going to stick the cells of my Componon 5.6/80 in a Prontor-S and try it on my Selfix 220 6x6 which has sliding bed focusing and an 80mm Ensar Anastigmat in a Prontor that needs cleaning as it sticks on all but one speed.

I might grab another Componon 5.6/80 sometime so I can compare using front and rear cells to using a pair of rear cells, which should be closer to a Symmar.

Ray Parkhurst · Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:41 am Post subject:

danfromm · Joined: 04 Sep 2011 Posts: 576

Ray, thanks for the reply. You've driven home the point that digital and much of the apparent bilge spouted about digital greatly confuses me. More to learn ...

I've never understood why color fringing should be visible with one image capture technology and not with another. Re color fringing, I know what it looks like, I had a 500/5.6 TeleAthenar II. Not a tele lens at all, a long focus achromatic doublet and poorly achromatized. Can't blame the CA on abuse, I shot the thing only after I had it rebuilt by Century.

Re dialyte type Apo Nikkors, I shot them for test (informal tests, but informative and repeatable) hung far out in front of a Nikon, shoot them for real hung far out in front of a 2x3 Graphic. Test shots were taken at f/9, f/11, f/16, and f/22. I stopped at f/22 because I rarely shoot for real at smaller apertures. Given the format I shoot, I'm really concerned about the center of the image.

My Apo Nikkors stand out from my other process lenses in being nearly as good at f/9 as at f/16 and as good as the others at f/16 and f/22. My Apo Saphirs improved noticeably from f/10 to f/16, matched the Apo Nikkors there. When I mentioned this to Eric Beltrando (you might enjoy a look at his site www.dioptrique.info) he first told me I had to be mistaken, then revisited his calculations and lenses and agreed that Apo Saphirs are better at f/16 than wide open.

I've had three Apo Ronars, a 600/9 monstrosity that I never used because of its size and weight and a pair of 150/9s. Possibly of interest to Ian, I shot the 150's for test against a 150/9 plasmat type G-Claron, promptly sold the G-Claron. I may have had an abused 150G-Claron or a dud. I never tried out the 270 G-Claron I got as part of a bundle, not an easy adaptation to any of my cameras. I've tried and sold three 240 dagor type G-Clarons, all shot the same, all very good; sold because a difficult/expensive adaptation. I have a 210 dagor type G-Claron in the closet, have tried it out (easier adaptation than bigger ones) and in spite of apparent coating problems it is also very good. Not a color fringe from the lot of them, and all good enough to use at distance, even the 150 G-Claron.

Cheers,

Dan
If I hadn't had that TA II I'd suspect that camera lenses with CA were imaginary.

Ray Parkhurst · Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:42 am Post subject:

I do coin photography and since I push for absolute max sharpness I have seen very few lenses where CA is NOT a problem. Of course CA is of two types, longitudinal and lateral. I suspect what you have seen at lower mags and smaller apertures is lateral, as longitudinal improves in these conditions. But for me, LongCA is a bugaboo that can't be easily corrected, and it ruins color accuracy. I could of course stop-down and reduce the problem, but then I lose sharpness.

I'm down to a handful of lenses that can produce sharp, color-accurate images. The 105AEL does well but is such a rare beast I hate to pull it from its box except for comparison tests. The 74SP is wonderful and imparts that classic Zeiss dimensionality. The 67S3 is ideal for smaller coins, and the 89S3 for larger coins, and both give a neutral look that is great for some types of coins. A new addition to my stable is the 80mm f6.7 Apo-Digitar (80AD) and it gives neutral character similar to the Scitex S3's. I think that neutral character is typical of lenses optimized for scanning, and both the 80AD and the S3's came out of decommissioned scanners. My workhorse is the 75ARD1, which seems to give the most balanced mix of qualities of any of the above, sharp and dimensional. But while it's called an Apo lens it is not apochromatic, just a well-corrected achromat.

Ultimately the 105PN is my reference for what an apochromatic duplication lens should do, and it does it better than any other lens. But there is always a price to pay, and for the 105PN it is a "sterility" that comes along with its optical perfection, as it imparts no character to the image and just shows you what's there. I think of this quality as "accuracy" and I expect this is what the Nikon designers were after. They did not want to impart any "look" to the prints made with the 105PN, just as perfect a reproduction as possible. For coins, this results in the sharpest, most color-accurate presentation available. But alas, the 105PN usually sits in the cabinet with the 105AEL, relegated to comparisons due to both rarity and focal length. I prefer using shorter lenses for most of my work, to keep my setups compact. I'm lucky the 75ARD1 can do well enough to please most anyone.

danfromm · Joined: 04 Sep 2011 Posts: 576

Ray, thanks for the additional explanation. Interesting and a little strange. Strange because one of the things apo process lenses are supposed to be well-corrected for is longitudinal color. This because they're used to make color separations and longitudinal color would cause the separations to be of slightly different sizes, i.e., not in perfect register.

I can see where you'd have difficulties because of working at relatively low effective apertures. Been there, had the problem, probably at much the same range of magnifications (typically 1:4 to 1:1) but with very different subjects. Small live fish in aquaria. With them the tradeoff between sharpness in the plane of best focus and sharpness in depth is brutal.

Re the 75 ARD, Rodenstock and Schneider marketers took advantage of a DIN standard to tout many of their LF lenses as apochromatic. Yes, according to the standard, which seems to have been withdrawn, but not according to anyone else.

Take a look at this: http://www.dioptrique.info/OBJECTIFS5/00202/00202A.HTM . Eric insists that Apo Saphirs are aberration-less over about 30 degrees from f/16 or so down. If you can stand to work at the small effective aperture that implies, you might want to try one. 135s and 180s aren't that scarce, but are considerably longer than you prefer. There are also 50, 75, and 100s, much less abundant. Eric once told me that the 50 was used by microscopists as well as photographers. But at f/10 wide open, probably not for you.

For curiosity, have you ever tried any of the copying lenses TTH made for the same application as Printing Nikkors?

Ray Parkhurst · Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:09 am Post subject:

danfromm · Joined: 04 Sep 2011 Posts: 576

Ray, thanks for the additional explanation. Your requirements are very stringent.

Re the TTH copying lenses, the trade name is Octal. It is described in US Pat 2,600,207. The patent claims good correction for everything, doesn't assert apochromaticity. I believe that some were used in "Hollywood," evidence for that is a few lenses offered on eBay by a specialist in cine equipment that were described as used for making release prints. Like Printing Nikkors, far out of my price range.

I know it is a little long for you, but have you ever tried a 100/6.3 Luminar? The one I owned was a badly abused dog, the one I borrowed from Charlie Barringer was very good indeed. Again, Zeiss never claimed that Luminars are apochromats but I wonder how bad they are in that respect. None of my lenses in that class gives color fringing on film but you've convinced me that's not conclusive. Shorter Luminars aren't recommended for the magnifications you need, but the 100 is, also the 90/6.3 Mikrotar and the 100/6.3 Neupolar.

Klaus Schmitt has all of these lenses, you might ask him if he'd take some test shots for you.

Years ago I surveyed fish photographers to find out if there really was only one way. Everyone surveyed used the same type of camera, same type of lens, and much the same lighting setup. Most used Nikon body and lens. One outlier, S. H. Weitzman of USNM, whose b/w shots of small characids are unsurpassed, used a Leicaflex SL (I don't recall which version) with a Leitz macro lens. Everyone I mentioned this to took Stan's results as evidence of Leica superiority. I don't think this is the right conclusion, 'cos Stan typically shot at f/8 set, f/16 effective, and the others shot at smaller apertures.

Ray Parkhurst · Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:42 pm Post subject:

danfromm · Joined: 04 Sep 2011 Posts: 576

The 90/6.3 Mikrotar is, like the 100/6.3 Neupolar, a reversed tessar. The pair of singlets face the film, the cemented doublet faces the subject. I had one, liked it very much, but Charlie Barringer coveted it and I had a 100/6.3 Neupolar that was at least as good so I sold the Mikrotar to him. After Charlie's death Westlicht bought his collection. I've seen my old 90 Mikrotar (s/n 786 732) on eBay. Mine was engraved "Jena M," not "Mikrotar" but is a Mikrotar, matches others engraved "Mikrotar." Zeiss, both BRD and DDR, macro lens nomenclature was opaque for years.

The 100/6.3 Luminar is a triplet. Charlie lent me his good 'un, it wasn't quite up to my 100 Neupolar. As I mentioned, Klaus has all of these lenses, perhaps he can ask your question for you.

If you're not acquainted with Enrico Savazzi's site (http://savazzi.freehostia.com/) you might want to spend a little time exploring it.

semaca · Joined: 23 Apr 2014 Posts: 25

This topic is a little bit long and technical. I just bought 5 enlarger lenses (emitar, mikar...), but what do I need to get a focused image? Some extensions tubes?

philslizzy · Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 4748 Location: Cheshire, England

Oldhand · Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:01 pm Post subject:

I have used a Vega 5U on my Nikon with success.
Closest focusing distance is approximately 93cm, which is pretty normal for a 105mm lens, and I do get infinity focus - Yay!
Here is the focusing setup and it includes a helical section.
More here:
http://forum.mflenses.com/some-fun-with-vega-5u-f4-105mm-on-nikon-t63691,highlight,%2Bvega+%2B5u.html

OH

semaca · Joined: 23 Apr 2014 Posts: 25

Oldhand · Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:51 am Post subject:

wolfhansen · Joined: 06 Oct 2013 Posts: 511 Location: Germany, Ruhr Area

Some example shots:

PZO AMAR/S 4.5/105mm

Here still with chinese helicoid on the Nex-6, now i use the VNEX-System to adapt the M42 enlarger lens.

Vega 22UC 103mm/5.6 (Вега 22УЦ) on helicoid

hinnerker · Expire: 2015-08-09

This is a halfframe Schneider Componon 4/28mm on VNEX KB "short" helicoid, a new VNEX development.

Mounted on my Sony A7 FF cam, but used in APS-C mode... so there is no color shift like normally you have with NEX cams like my NEX 7..
so i decided to use it as one of the smallest 4/42mm i know.

I name it "Mighty mouse"... Very Happy

The VNEX KB short is for Sony A7 and all NEX Models to bring enlarger lenses like 40mm or less on this cams to work as lenses for everyday use.

You can simply use the VNEX KB short as an ordinary LTM to NEX Adaptor because he has the same dimensions (register distance) like the LTM = 28.8mm...

left VNEX KB short with Componon 4/28mm, right a conventional LTM Adaptor

But you can use the VNEX KB short as a focus helicoid with focus tube up to 9mm !!!!

With the new VNEX KB "short" Adaptor you will get a close up distance of 18cm !!!

Here are some samples with that combination in APS-C Mode of the A7 with VNEX short and Componon 4/28mm:

Close up...with additional 100% crop..

Kindly regards
Henry

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

Very nice Henry.

Componons are excellent taking lenses, they are close in design to the Symmar. I use 5.6/100 and 5.6/135 Componon-S as taking lenses (in shutters) on my 6x9 Century Graphic. I also have 5.6/150 and 5.6/180 Symmars and I really can't see any different in quality between the two types.

Mark · Joined: 01 Dec 2012 Posts: 251 Location: Budapest, Hungary

Wow, nice shots!!! I am still looking for a good ebay seller, who sells good M39 - M42 adapters. Do you have any suggestion?

philslizzy · Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 4748 Location: Cheshire, England