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Tomioka Tominon C 4.5 cm f/1.9
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2024 10:43 pm    Post subject: Tomioka Tominon C 4.5 cm f/1.9 Reply with quote
Because there doesn't seem to be a dedicated thread on this lens and there's barely any reliable information on it on the web in general, I thought might be worth it to start one and perhaps gather a little bit of information on it. As mentioned in my 40-50 mm comparison thread (https://forum.mflenses.com/the-40-50-mm-lens-comparison-no-one-needed-t85476.html) it does fare pretty well against similar lenses, like the Petri Orikkor 4.5 cm f/1.9 or the Okaya Optic Highkor 40 mm f/1.8, particularly in terms of sharpness/detail and contrast.



I haven't been able to find any information on the construction of this lens, but from my own observations I'm pretty sure that it features a 6 elements in 4 groups construction. It has 10 aperture blades and is likely single coated (perhaps, that's what the C. stands for?) The lens was likely made in 1957 or thereabouts...



It was mounted on a Royal 35M camera in a Copal MXV shutter. The lens is non interchangeable, but does feature a mounting thread (likely a #00 Copal shutter size of 25mm with 0.5mm, as Ernst Dinkla informed me in the thread mentioned before). This lens might have also been used on re-branded cameras (like the Wirgin 19E for example) and there's a Tominor-labeled lens with similar specs, which might or might not be identical... I don't know yet.

What I do know, is that this lens is a lot of fun when used on a full frame mirrorless camera, which is what I'm doing. It might not be up to more modern lenses as far as even performance at the corners is concerned, but even there it does seem to be able to stand its ground far better than I would have expected from my experience with rangefinder lenses from the era.

For close-ups it's pure joy though...

On the count of three... by simple.joy, on Flickr

Bent out of shape by simple.joy, on Flickr

Recog-nice! by simple.joy, on Flickr

#1


#2


#3


#4


#5


#6


#7


#8


#9



Here are a couple of stereo versions (cross view):







If you have any more information about this lens in terms of construction, ads etc. I would really appreciate it if you could share them here!


PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Very nice!


PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2024 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
wow 7 and 8 have so different and nice bokeh, what formula has this lens? everything tominon written in forn of a lens, it went up in price so much these years


PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2024 12:51 pm    Post subject: Tominon 4,5cm 1.9 lens type Reply with quote
If 1957 was the actual date this Tominon 4,5cm 1.9 lens was produced-delivered then it is likely a 4 groups 6 elements lens. On fixed lens rangefinder "35" cameras there was then not a big variety of lens designs and within the 45mm focal length group the lens designs were double gauss 4/6 1.8-1.9 types, Xenotar-Unilite 4/5 2.8 types, Tessar 3/4 2.8 types.

Exceptions: the first Canonet Canon SE 4,5cm 1.9 with an even more pronounced 4/5 Unilite design (even thicker 4th element) similar in design to the exchangeable Canon 50mm 2.2 RF lens. The Minolta Hi-Matic 7 with a 45mm 1.8 6/5 Ultron type design (1963) and the Canonet 17QL Canon SE 45mm 1.7 6/5 Ultron type (1965)


PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2024 2:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Tominon 4,5cm 1.9 lens type Reply with quote
caspert79 wrote:
Very nice!


Thanks a lot - glad you like it!

kiddo wrote:
wow 7 and 8 have so different and nice bokeh, what formula has this lens? everything tominon written in forn of a lens, it went up in price so much these years


As mentioned in the initial post, I think it's a 6 elements in 4 groups construction.

Ernst Dinkla wrote:
If 1957 was the actual date this Tominon 4,5cm 1.9 lens was produced-delivered then it is likely a 4 groups 6 elements lens. On fixed lens rangefinder "35" cameras there was then not a big variety of lens designs and within the 45mm focal length group the lens designs were double gauss 4/6 1.8-1.9 types, Xenotar-Unilite 4/5 2.8 types, Tessar 3/4 2.8 types.

Exceptions: the first Canonet Canon SE 4,5cm 1.9 with an even more pronounced 4/5 Unilite design (even thicker 4th element) similar in design to the exchangeable Canon 50mm 2.2 RF lens. The Minolta Hi-Matic 7 with a 45mm 1.8 6/5 Ultron type design (1963) and the Canonet 17QL Canon SE 45mm 1.7 6/5 Ultron type (1965)


Thank you very much for that detailed information. As mentioned in the original post, I think it's a 6/4 design.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2024 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
3D pop is outstanding and bokeh character truly lovely!
thanks for sharing!! <3


PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2024 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kathala wrote:
3D pop is outstanding and bokeh character truly lovely!
thanks for sharing!! <3


Thank you very much! I'm happy you like it.


PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2024 1:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Tominon 4,5cm 1.9 lens type Reply with quote
simple.joy wrote:
caspert79 wrote:
Very nice!


Thanks a lot - glad you like it!

kiddo wrote:
wow 7 and 8 have so different and nice bokeh, what formula has this lens? everything tominon written in forn of a lens, it went up in price so much these years


As mentioned in the initial post, I think it's a 6 elements in 4 groups construction.

Ernst Dinkla wrote:
If 1957 was the actual date this Tominon 4,5cm 1.9 lens was produced-delivered then it is likely a 4 groups 6 elements lens. On fixed lens rangefinder "35" cameras there was then not a big variety of lens designs and within the 45mm focal length group the lens designs were double gauss 4/6 1.8-1.9 types, Xenotar-Unilite 4/5 2.8 types, Tessar 3/4 2.8 types.

Exceptions: the first Canonet Canon SE 4,5cm 1.9 with an even more pronounced 4/5 Unilite design (even thicker 4th element) similar in design to the exchangeable Canon 50mm 2.2 RF lens. The Minolta Hi-Matic 7 with a 45mm 1.8 6/5 Ultron type design (1963) and the Canonet 17QL Canon SE 45mm 1.7 6/5 Ultron type (1965)


Thank you very much for that detailed information. As mentioned in the original post, I think it's a 6/4 design.


Few beauty rings that show the same 'Tomioka Tominon C' text but an M42 50mm 2.0 has it as well and a reference to the year 1958. Tomioka at that time manufactured lenses for more companies. That lens has at least 2 clones next to the one for a Wards camera

https://pakira3.sakura.ne.jp/wp/?p=4380

The font used in the lettering on your lens is identical to the early Yashinon 4,5cm lenses that I salvaged from Yashica rangefinders.

A wide variety of Royal 35 cameras plus clones here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/43063706@N02/albums/72157622471715773/with/5375267373
but only the Wirgin 19E has the Tomioka Tominon C text on the ring. https://www.flickr.com/photos/43063706@N02/4993817369/in/album-72157622471715773. Either a lens was transplanted or just the beauty ring on the lens if the size was right. BTW, Some Royal 35 clones have a lens exterior that almost looks like a Yashica Minister lens.

Why my search: I am interested in the early Biometar-Xenotar-Unilite type lenses on the Japanese fixed lens '35' rangefinders. The Yashica 35, 35YL, the Fujica 35 M and 35ML, there are more. And maybe also in the Royal '35' clones. All 4,5cm 2.8. Main design goal was to get better IQ from edge to edge than a Tessar lens could deliver and not aiming at a faster lens design. In that period Canon had some RF lens designs like that. The early Yashica 35's either got them from Tomioka or the design was borrowed from the Nicca rangefinders after the purchase of that company, their lenses linked to Nikon, which used the 5/4 scheme for its 5cm 3.5 Micro S and LTM mount lens (1956). Whether FujiFilm had its own design I still wonder about. The interest in that 5/4 design for a standard lens did not last long though for the '35' rangefinders, however it kept its place in the SLR 50-60mm Macro lenses either straight or reversed. FujiFilm used it in some SLR Fujinon X DM EBC standard lenses later on, faster types with no cemented elements or just one doublet.


PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2024 1:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Tominon 4,5cm 1.9 lens type Reply with quote
Ernst Dinkla wrote:

Few beauty rings that show the same 'Tomioka Tominon C' text but an M42 50mm 2.0 has it as well and a reference to the year 1958. Tomioka at that time manufactured lenses for more companies. That lens has at least 2 clones next to the one for a Wards camera

https://pakira3.sakura.ne.jp/wp/?p=4380

The font used in the lettering on your lens is identical to the early Yashinon 4,5cm lenses that I salvaged from Yashica rangefinders.

A wide variety of Royal 35 cameras plus clones here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/43063706@N02/albums/72157622471715773/with/5375267373
but only the Wirgin 19E has the Tomioka Tominon C text on the ring. https://www.flickr.com/photos/43063706@N02/4993817369/in/album-72157622471715773. Either a lens was transplanted or just the beauty ring on the lens if the size was right. BTW, Some Royal 35 clones have a lens exterior that almost looks like a Yashica Minister lens.

Why my search: I am interested in the early Biometar-Xenotar-Unilite type lenses on the Japanese fixed lens '35' rangefinders. The Yashica 35, 35YL, the Fujica 35 M and 35ML, there are more. And maybe also in the Royal '35' clones. All 4,5cm 2.8. Main design goal was to get better IQ from edge to edge than a Tessar lens could deliver and not aiming at a faster lens design. In that period Canon had some RF lens designs like that. The early Yashica 35's either got them from Tomioka or the design was borrowed from the Nicca rangefinders after the purchase of that company, their lenses linked to Nikon, which used the 5/4 scheme for its 5cm 3.5 Micro S and LTM mount lens (1956). Whether FujiFilm had its own design I still wonder about. The interest in that 5/4 design for a standard lens did not last long though for the '35' rangefinders, however it kept its place in the SLR 50-60mm Macro lenses either straight or reversed. FujiFilm used it in some SLR Fujinon X DM EBC standard lenses later on, faster types with no cemented elements or just one doublet.


Thanks a lot - that sounds like a fascinating topic. I don't have too many lenses from that era unfortunately and my Kuribayashi AC Orikkor 4.5 cm f/2.8 seems to be a Tessar design. How does the Biometar-Xenotar-Unilite design you mention look like? And could the (later) Tomioka-made Macro-Yashinon 60 mm f/2.8 be based on it?



PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Tominon 4,5cm 1.9 lens type Reply with quote
simple.joy wrote:
Ernst Dinkla wrote:

Few beauty rings that show the same 'Tomioka Tominon C' text but an M42 50mm 2.0 has it as well and a reference to the year 1958. Tomioka at that time manufactured lenses for more companies. That lens has at least 2 clones next to the one for a Wards camera

https://pakira3.sakura.ne.jp/wp/?p=4380

The font used in the lettering on your lens is identical to the early Yashinon 4,5cm lenses that I salvaged from Yashica rangefinders.

A wide variety of Royal 35 cameras plus clones here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/43063706@N02/albums/72157622471715773/with/5375267373
but only the Wirgin 19E has the Tomioka Tominon C text on the ring. https://www.flickr.com/photos/43063706@N02/4993817369/in/album-72157622471715773. Either a lens was transplanted or just the beauty ring on the lens if the size was right. BTW, Some Royal 35 clones have a lens exterior that almost looks like a Yashica Minister lens.

Why my search: I am interested in the early Biometar-Xenotar-Unilite type lenses on the Japanese fixed lens '35' rangefinders. The Yashica 35, 35YL, the Fujica 35 M and 35ML, there are more. And maybe also in the Royal '35' clones. All 4,5cm 2.8. Main design goal was to get better IQ from edge to edge than a Tessar lens could deliver and not aiming at a faster lens design. In that period Canon had some RF lens designs like that. The early Yashica 35's either got them from Tomioka or the design was borrowed from the Nicca rangefinders after the purchase of that company, their lenses linked to Nikon, which used the 5/4 scheme for its 5cm 3.5 Micro S and LTM mount lens (1956). Whether FujiFilm had its own design I still wonder about. The interest in that 5/4 design for a standard lens did not last long though for the '35' rangefinders, however it kept its place in the SLR 50-60mm Macro lenses either straight or reversed. FujiFilm used it in some SLR Fujinon X DM EBC standard lenses later on, faster types with no cemented elements or just one doublet.


Thanks a lot - that sounds like a fascinating topic. I don't have too many lenses from that era unfortunately and my Kuribayashi AC Orikkor 4.5 cm f/2.8 seems to be a Tessar design. How does the Biometar-Xenotar-Unilite design you mention look like? And could the (later) Tomioka-made Macro-Yashinon 60 mm f/2.8 be based on it?



In macro lenses the Nikkor Micro 5cm 3.5 S mount was the first with that design (inspired by Wynne's Unilite 1944 patents or even earlier Zeiss patents) and was followed up with the Nikkor SLR 55mm 3.5 variant. Other companies like Tomioka, who made the Yashinon Macro 60mm you showed, plus the identical Mamiya Sekor TL version and yet another one, followed suit. The Mamiya Sekor CS 50mm Macro also used the same concept. Olympus, Leitz, FujiFilm, as well. Either inverted or straight. Marco Cavina has some good web pages on the Xenotar, for example the article on the Olympus OM Macro 135mm 4.0 bellows lens.

The fixed lens rangefinders I mentioned show these lens diagrams:

Fuji 35-M


Yashica 35


Canon 50mm 2.2 LTM lens diagram which is very similar to the first Canonet Canon SE 45mm 1.9
(which I had to disassemble for another reason)


PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2024 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Tomioka Tominon C 4.5 cm f/1.9 Reply with quote
simple.joy wrote:




this would fit so sexy on a fuji x-e series ...


PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2024 11:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Tomioka Tominon C 4.5 cm f/1.9 Reply with quote
alex_d wrote:


this would fit so sexy on a fuji x-e series ...


Well, if it's looks you're after... Wink

I feel like this would be one of my current choices, if I had a Fuji X-E or X-T:



A Schneider Kreuznach Xenon 50 mm f/2 from the Voss Diax series...

Takes lovely shots as well, but that's too much OT really...


PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2024 11:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Tominon 4,5cm 1.9 lens type Reply with quote
Ernst Dinkla wrote:


In macro lenses the Nikkor Micro 5cm 3.5 S mount was the first with that design (inspired by Wynne's Unilite 1944 patents or even earlier Zeiss patents) and was followed up with the Nikkor SLR 55mm 3.5 variant. Other companies like Tomioka, who made the Yashinon Macro 60mm you showed, plus the identical Mamiya Sekor TL version and yet another one, followed suit. The Mamiya Sekor CS 50mm Macro also used the same concept. Olympus, Leitz, FujiFilm, as well. Either inverted or straight. Marco Cavina has some good web pages on the Xenotar, for example the article on the Olympus OM Macro 135mm 4.0 bellows lens.

The fixed lens rangefinders I mentioned show these lens diagrams:

Fuji 35-M


Yashica 35


Canon 50mm 2.2 LTM lens diagram which is very similar to the first Canonet Canon SE 45mm 1.9
(which I had to disassemble for another reason)


Thank you - all quite fascinating! Totally get, why you're interested in those lenses... it's a rabbit hole I should probably avoid though. Wink


PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2024 6:49 am    Post subject: Re: Tomioka Tominon C 4.5 cm f/1.9 Reply with quote
simple.joy wrote:
alex_d wrote:


this would fit so sexy on a fuji x-e series ...


Well, if it's looks you're after... Wink

I feel like this would be one of my current choices, if I had a Fuji X-E or X-T:

A Schneider Kreuznach Xenon 50 mm f/2 from the Voss Diax series...

Takes lovely shots as well, but that's too much OT really...


"looks" incorporated with the size so it fits a jacket pocket.
but 45 becomes ~70-ish on a crop sensor.

that why i got tominon 32mm and 28mm from old rangefinders for 'converson'.

Then Chineze lenses came around For a Few Dollars More and Pergear is perma attached to one of my x-e series.

And there is Voiglander ....


PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2024 9:38 am    Post subject: Re: Tomioka Tominon C 4.5 cm f/1.9 Reply with quote
alex_d wrote:


"looks" incorporated with the size so it fits a jacket pocket.
but 45 becomes ~70-ish on a crop sensor.

that why i got tominon 32mm and 28mm from old rangefinders for 'converson'.

Then Chineze lenses came around For a Few Dollars More and Pergear is perma attached to one of my x-e series.

And there is Voiglander ....


Yeah, I guess more modern MF lenses might be the better option for many people nowadays. I've never been drawn to any of them, but the Voigtländer lenses might indeed be awesome. I certainly like their design and Cosina is a quality company with lots of know-how.

I love the 32 mm f/1.7 Mamiya-Tominon, but I guess you're perhaps talking about a different one? Unfortunately I haven't been able to use that lens with a diaphragm. I love it wide open nonetheless. Which 28 mm Tominon do you have?


PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2024 10:20 am    Post subject: Re: Tomioka Tominon C 4.5 cm f/1.9 Reply with quote
simple.joy wrote:
alex_d wrote:


"looks" incorporated with the size so it fits a jacket pocket.
but 45 becomes ~70-ish on a crop sensor.

that why i got tominon 32mm and 28mm from old rangefinders for 'converson'.

Then Chineze lenses came around For a Few Dollars More and Pergear is perma attached to one of my x-e series.

And there is Voiglander ....


Yeah, I guess more modern MF lenses might be the better option for many people nowadays. I've never been drawn to any of them, but the Voigtländer lenses might indeed be awesome. I certainly like their design and Cosina is a quality company with lots of know-how.

I love the 32 mm f/1.7 Mamiya-Tominon, but I guess you're perhaps talking about a different one? Unfortunately I haven't been able to use that lens with a diaphragm. I love it wide open nonetheless. Which 28 mm Tominon do you have?


yes this 32mm f/1.7 Mamiya-Tominon.
Luckily i did not butchered camera still.
I have seen someone pics on Flick and it look fantastic to me.

28mm is not written tominon but according to my (i could be wrong) research it came out that is or tominon or the same optic formula as tominon.
and lens is from yashica or minolta or pentax .. i cant remember anymore and i hope that didnt mixd with some other length... but its a lens from a halver and not from FF


PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2024 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Tomioka Tominon C 4.5 cm f/1.9 Reply with quote
alex_d wrote:


yes this 32mm f/1.7 Mamiya-Tominon.
Luckily i did not butchered camera still.
I have seen someone pics on Flick and it look fantastic to me.

28mm is not written tominon but according to my (i could be wrong) research it came out that is or tominon or the same optic formula as tominon.
and lens is from yashica or minolta or pentax .. i cant remember anymore and i hope that didnt mixd with some other length... but its a lens from a halver and not from FF


Thanks for the information! Could you share a link to the images you saw on flickr? I've looked quite a bit when I got mine and was barely able to find anything... The only two notable galleries on Flickr i've seen are these:

https://flickr.com/photos/loeffel_1/albums/72157697155843140/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/98117769@N06/albums/72157718524447310/

They're very nice looking shots indeed, but given that you don't seem to consider bokeh-heavy close-ups and macros like that very informative, I guess that you're talking about another persons shots, who adapted it?

I've seen a handful of film shots as well on flickr, but because they're either low res and/or black and white I find it very hard (almost impossible) to determine anything from those in regards to the lens. But if you can point towards something, I'm honestly really interested to learn about that.


PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2024 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
yes this one

https://flickr.com/photos/loeffel_1/albums/72157697155843140/


never seen those and not a fan of it, also some heavy PP i think
https://www.flickr.com/photos/98117769@N06/albums/72157718524447310/

anyway, stuff are slowly coming back, it could be that Olympus F.Zuiko 32/1.7 from Pen EEd is the same lens and I think that I have butchered that camera ..


PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2024 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
i did made a mistake, other butchered lens was from yashica halver and its yashinon dx 32/1.7

I'm still trying to figure out how to couple it, but I've seen some interesting developments on the forum, so maybe I'll be lucky in the future.

from my rsearch back then I concluded that this lens could be a tomioka one but not mentioned on the front ring.
For so long, if it matters at all..

and to add:
I strongly suspect that Chinese as smart as they are,
are copying a lot of those rangefinder lenses from back then as the formula is excellent fit for crop sensors in mirrorles cameras.

For example , a look at a few of X Chinese lenses for crop sensor in 35mm and from 1.4 to 1.6, 1.8 ... they could be an easy copy of Yashica Dx 35 1.7(8?)


PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2024 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
alex_d wrote:
i did made a mistake, other butchered lens was from yashica halver and its yashinon dx 32/1.7

I'm still trying to figure out how to couple it, but I've seen some interesting developments on the forum, so maybe I'll be lucky in the future.

from my rsearch back then I concluded that this lens could be a tomioka one but not mentioned on the front ring.
For so long, if it matters at all..


Thanks for the correction and additional information! I feel like discussion of those lenses might be better suited for the new thread on the Mamiya-Tominon 32 mm f/1.7 (https://forum.mflenses.com/tomioka-mamiya-tominon-32-mm-f-1-7-myrapid-camera-lens-t85489.html) which shares the specs and origin as a half-frame camera lens. There has been an update by blotafton there as well on the F. Zuiko, which could very well be similar to the Yashinon DX. The Mamiya-Tominon seems to be a different (7 element) construction though.

And as mentioned before: Because Tomioka could have been a subsidiary of Osawa at the time, who might have had an interest in using that capable lens manufacturer to create lenses for Mamiya cameras (Osawa owned shares of Mamiya as well and had significant trade deals), Yashica may have sourced that particular lens elsewhere, perhaps from Olympus.


PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2024 2:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Tominon 4,5cm 1.9 lens type Reply with quote
Ernst Dinkla wrote:
Few beauty rings that show the same 'Tomioka Tominon C' text but an M42 50mm 2.0 has it as well and a reference to the year 1958. Tomioka at that time manufactured lenses for more companies. That lens has at least 2 clones next to the one for a Wards camera




Just for reference.


PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2024 3:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Tominon 4,5cm 1.9 lens type Reply with quote
KEO wrote:
Ernst Dinkla wrote:
Few beauty rings that show the same 'Tomioka Tominon C' text but an M42 50mm 2.0 has it as well and a reference to the year 1958. Tomioka at that time manufactured lenses for more companies. That lens has at least 2 clones next to the one for a Wards camera




Just for reference.


Very nice - thanks for sharing! Do you have some sample shots taken with it?


PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2024 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: Tominon 4,5cm 1.9 lens type Reply with quote
Here is a shot taken with the Yashinon 5cm version.



PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2024 8:54 am    Post subject: Re: Tominon 4,5cm 1.9 lens type Reply with quote
blotafton wrote:
Here is a shot taken with the Yashinon 5cm version.



Thanks - looks very nice!


PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2024 9:03 am    Post subject: Re: Tominon 4,5cm 1.9 lens type Reply with quote
simple.joy wrote:
blotafton wrote:
Here is a shot taken with the Yashinon 5cm version.



Thanks - looks very nice!


Thank you! it's one of those great lenses still out there that goes under the radar if it's attached to a camera.
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