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What is Zeiss-Ikon Ernar 50mm f/1.4?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2024 1:00 pm    Post subject: What is Zeiss-Ikon Ernar 50mm f/1.4? Reply with quote
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Does anyone know what kind of projection lens this is? I haven't been able to find any information on it. It seems like Zeiss used an old trademark name from Ernemann for this lens, also called Ernar, but it's around f/6.8 and doesn't seem related to the original lens other than the name. I found a trademark from 1952 by Zeiss Ikon for Ernar, which says it was first issued in 1926 or 1927, around the time Ernemann was bought by Zeiss.
https://www.google.no/books/edition/Warenzeichenblatt/ZXx0EHUf54oC

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2024 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Very interesting. Unfortunately I don't know anything about it... I've seen that lens on ebay and wondered about it as well. The ErnAR name would suggest that it could be a Tessar-like, but I don't think that's possible with those specs. It looks like a projection lens for sure. Have you tried shooting it? I would be very interested to see some samples and know what kind of image circle it covers. It looks bigger than I would have imagined, so I suspect it covers full frame?

One more though... Zeiss Ikon made a projection lens with identical specs, the Proj. Anastigmat "Alinar" 50 mm f/1.4 (which I seem to recall you might be familiar with, given the information on your website). Do you think the Ernar could be a re-computed/improved version of that? Or is it very different in terms of design?


PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2024 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
simple.joy wrote:
The ErnAR name would suggest that it could be a Tessar-like

Why should it? ErnostAR isn't Tessar-like at all, just as a example.



simple.joy wrote:
but I don't think that's possible with those specs.

Agreed. The fastest Tessars were around f2.8, though there were even faster pre-WWII prototypes with an aspherical (!!) surface.


simple.joy wrote:
It looks like a projection lens for sure. Have you tried shooting it? I would be very interested to see some samples and know what kind of image circle it covers. It looks bigger than I would have imagined, so I suspect it covers full frame?

[/quote]

It's quite asymmetrical, so I assume for 16mm film. Could be a classical Ernostar formula, for instance.

S


PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2024 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:
simple.joy wrote:
The ErnAR name would suggest that it could be a Tessar-like

Why should it? ErnostAR isn't Tessar-like at all, just as a example.


You're right - of course there are many other lenses ending with -AR, (even from Zeiss). Still, so many lenses with a similar design used such a (often short) name...

Xenar, Hexar, Solinar, Ysar, Rogonar, Ektar (early), Skopar, Industar, Primotar.

But after reading that the original Ernar design was a Dialyt and that it predated the ending of the Tessar patent significantly, I don't think there's anything to it. Might as well just have used a name that wasn't used for anything else at the time and in their possession. Or - as you suggested below - used the similar sounding name because it was based on an Ernostar design.


stevemark wrote:


It's quite asymmetrical, so I assume for 16mm film. Could be a classical Ernostar formula, for instance.

S


Quite possible.

Anyway - if that lens will be in Espen's hands soon (I think the images so far are seller images) I'm quite curious to find out!

Last edited by simple.joy on Wed Aug 07, 2024 8:47 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2024 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
simple.joy wrote:
Anyway - if that lens will be in Espen's hands soon (I think the images so far are seller images) I'm quite curious to find out!


I'll get the lens in a couple of weeks, and hopefully be able to open it up without any issue to see what kind of lens this is. As you guys said, the optical design can be whatever at this point.

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I did try to take rough measurements when trying to decide to buy it or not. Of the optical designs I tried to match up with it seems like the post-war Ernostar design from Zeiss Ikon was the closest in terms of dimensions. The image shows first the Ernar lens with rough measurements, then Alinar 50/1.4, then post war Ernostar, then Biotar, lastly Prokinar.

I don't really see the point of having two names for the same optical design, other than the Ernostar lenses Zeiss Ikon made in the 1950s all were f/1.8 and over and for 35mm film if I remember correctly.

I also thought about the Alinar 50mm f/1.4 lens, which is smaller, with a barrel dimension of 42.5mm (The Ernar 50/1.4 is 52.5mm diameter). But then again I have a one of a kind Post-war Alinar 50/1.4 prototype lens from Zeiss Opton, so I don't see why they would change the name if they already had the rights. Let's not forget that the Post-war Alinar lenses was continued to be used on 35mm film projectors, changing their optical design completely to something very similar to Super-Kiptar lenses.

My wishful thinking is that it's some kind of double gauss design, maybe they didn't have the rights for Planar or Biotar at this point, if it was produced in the early 1950s. I doubt it tho, we'll just have to wait and see if no one have any idea what this lens might be.


PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Like 1 small Like 1 small Interesting lens indeed! Great find!


PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2024 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ostenespen wrote:


I'll get the lens in a couple of weeks, and hopefully be able to open it up without any issue to see what kind of lens this is. As you guys said, the optical design can be whatever at this point.

#1


I did try to take rough measurements when trying to decide to buy it or not. Of the optical designs I tried to match up with it seems like the post-war Ernostar design from Zeiss Ikon was the closest in terms of dimensions. The image shows first the Ernar lens with rough measurements, then Alinar 50/1.4, then post war Ernostar, then Biotar, lastly Prokinar.

I don't really see the point of having two names for the same optical design, other than the Ernostar lenses Zeiss Ikon made in the 1950s all were f/1.8 and over and for 35mm film if I remember correctly.

I also thought about the Alinar 50mm f/1.4 lens, which is smaller, with a barrel dimension of 42.5mm (The Ernar 50/1.4 is 52.5mm diameter). But then again I have a one of a kind Post-war Alinar 50/1.4 prototype lens from Zeiss Opton, so I don't see why they would change the name if they already had the rights. Let's not forget that the Post-war Alinar lenses was continued to be used on 35mm film projectors, changing their optical design completely to something very similar to Super-Kiptar lenses.

My wishful thinking is that it's some kind of double gauss design, maybe they didn't have the rights for Planar or Biotar at this point, if it was produced in the early 1950s. I doubt it tho, we'll just have to wait and see if no one have any idea what this lens might be.


It's possible you know quite a bit more about the lens now, if you got it already, but I've been researching it a bit, because I find it quite a fascinating and fun topic. Here's what I was able to find so far:

1.) The Zeiss Ikon Ernar existed in three focal lengths 35, 50 and 65 mm f/1.4

2.) It was used on a Projector called Zeiss Ikon Favorit 16B (You can see an image here: http://www.normalzeit.info/kinotechnik/16mm/kino16.html and likely here as well https://kvikmyndasafn.is/myndasafn/zeiss-ikon-favorid-16/

3.) The Favorit 16B was a 16 mm film projector (according to some information also usable for the 35 mm film format, perhaps with some upgrade?) which was manufactured by the Italian manufacturer Prevost. It was pretty good engineering according to an expert, but had a couple of flaws which hurt its reputation, so it likely wasn't sold in high numbers). The Favorit 16B seems to have had a lens revolver.

4.) Anecdotally a couple of those machines were used in Switzerland but I haven't been able to find any evidence and it's quite possible that some of the cinemas in question don't exist anymore.

5.) The Zeiss Ikon Ernar lens was mentioned in a price list from 1969 and listed for the Favorit 16B. As with other projection lenses it's quite possible however that it has also been used in some other projectors, like the Ernemann 15 35/16 for example (https://www.filmlabs.org/docs/Erneumann15.pdf) That's just speculation however, because I haven't been able to find out with certainty if the 50 mm lens was indeed made for 16 mm only, or if it did cover 35 mm as well.

6.) The Favorit 16B Projector was mentioned in the magazin "Bild und Ton" between 1966 and 1972 according to information from the Zeiss Archive. I don't know what issue(s) though and I haven't been able to locate full issues of that magazine online.

No information on the optical construction or coverage unfortunately. It was very fun looking for some information regardless and I feel like I've learned a little bit about an area I pretty much knew nothing about.

So if anyone here has any of the "Bild and Ton" magazines mentioned or know someone with access to them, it would be interesting to know if there's something relevant about the lens in there. I'm looking forward to Espens findings on the optical construction. I agree that an Ernostar-based design (I found out that there has been an Ernostar 50 mm f/1.9 earlier as well (https://www.leitz-auction.com/de/Zeiss-Ernemann-Ernostar-1.9-5cm-cine-lens/AI-41-40754) and of course there's also the Kipronar 50 mm f/1.4 that hasn't been mentioned in the drawing above... but I doubt it's a possible construction anyway.


PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2024 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
simple.joy wrote:

It's possible you know quite a bit more about the lens now, if you got it already, but I've been researching it a bit, because I find it quite a fascinating and fun topic.


I did get the lens, but when I tried it, it didn't even cover APS-C, which made me disappointed. Then when opening the lens I was at least hoping for a unique Zeiss optical design, but again I was disappointed. So I kinda ragequit because I feel like I lost money on buying this, thinking I'd have more use for it. But I guess it's a bit rare.


#1 – Ernar 50/1.4 optical design


This is the approximate optical design, The third lens from the front might have some glued elements, but I couldn't see any actual seams so I'm not sure. But I've seen this design many times before, including the Astro-Kino-Color IV 50mm 1.4/1.5/1.6 lenses. Which also doesn't have big image circles. Also the 1950s Zeiss Ikon Ernostar lenses they made for 35mm projectors have this similar looking optical design.

#2 – Picture of Astro-Kino Color IV 50mm optical design.



#3 Astro-Kino-Color IV 100/1.8 and TV-Tachar optical design.


#4 Post-War Zeiss Ikon Ernostar optical design.


Thank you for finding information about the projector, I have no idea how you found this information.
After you found the correct projector I found this little snippet of text from Filmwoche (1966):
Quote:
Zeiss Ikon AG, Kiel plant, is introducing a new 16mm film projector called the Favorit 16 B, a stationary machine with a Maltese cross mechanism and a lens turret, primarily designed for cinemas, schools, and studios. A xenon lamp is intended to be used as the light source.


All of these lenses are post war, and from the 1950/60s West-Germany. I guess this optical design was very affordable, with only free standing optical elements. Perfect for a cheap post-war production. If I remember correctly the Astro-Kino-Color IV line was released all the back in 1953 for the Siemens 2000 16mm film projector. The post-war Ernostar for 35mm cinema was some years before that.


PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2024 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ostenespen wrote:


I did get the lens, but when I tried it, it didn't even cover APS-C, which made me disappointed. Then when opening the lens I was at least hoping for a unique Zeiss optical design, but again I was disappointed. So I kinda ragequit because I feel like I lost money on buying this, thinking I'd have more use for it. But I guess it's a bit rare.


I'm really sorry to hear that - I know that feeling all too well unfortunately... talked a couple of times with Robert OToole about it: without a handful of lens enthusiasts willing to take a risk and just try things from time to time, we wouldn't know about some of the most interesting adapted lenses for sure!

So - thanks for doing some unique and interesting work and research!

ostenespen wrote:


#1 – Ernar 50/1.4 optical design


This is the approximate optical design, The third lens from the front might have some glued elements, but I couldn't see any actual seams so I'm not sure. But I've seen this design many times before, including the Astro-Kino-Color IV 50mm 1.4/1.5/1.6 lenses. Which also doesn't have big image circles. Also the 1950s Zeiss Ikon Ernostar lenses they made for 35mm projectors have this similar looking optical design.

#2 – Picture of Astro-Kino Color IV 50mm optical design.



#3 Astro-Kino-Color IV 100/1.8 and TV-Tachar optical design.


#4 Post-War Zeiss Ikon Ernostar optical design.


Thank you for finding information about the projector, I have no idea how you found this information.
After you found the correct projector I found this little snippet of text from Filmwoche (1966):
Quote:
Zeiss Ikon AG, Kiel plant, is introducing a new 16mm film projector called the Favorit 16 B, a stationary machine with a Maltese cross mechanism and a lens turret, primarily designed for cinemas, schools, and studios. A xenon lamp is intended to be used as the light source.


All of these lenses are post war, and from the 1950/60s West-Germany. I guess this optical design was very affordable, with only free standing optical elements. Perfect for a cheap post-war production. If I remember correctly the Astro-Kino-Color IV line was released all the back in 1953 for the Siemens 2000 16mm film projector. The post-war Ernostar for 35mm cinema was some years before that.


Many thanks for the detailed information. I'm still almost completely unfamiliar with Astro and their designs, so I wouldn't have thought of that... Do you also know the design of the Astro Kino Color V 50 mm f/1.25? Must be a five element lens according to the information you've shared before, right?
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