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connloyalist
![Level 2 Level 2](rating2.gif) Joined: 22 Jul 2020 Posts: 331 Location: the Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:30 am Post subject: Please help me understand the versions of "M39" mo |
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connloyalist wrote:
Hi All,
I would appreciate some help in understanding the variations of the "M39" mount. My current understanding is that there are (at least?) two different versions:
1. Leica Screw Mount (LSM) / Leica Thread Mount (LTM) / L39 / Leica M39. These are all the same thing and according to Wikipedia is M39 x 26 TPI Whitworth, about 0.977mm. This has a flange distance of 28.8mm for rangefinder camera's.
2. "Soviet" M39 with a 1 mm DIN thread and a 45.2mm flange distance for an SLR.
Wikipedia also lists:
3. Canon J mount, M39 x 24 TPI.
I am assuming that you cannot tell the difference between a Leica M39 and a Soviet M39 by looking at a lens. So the classification would have to be made based on manufacturer? Anything of Soviet or East German origin would be for a 45.2mm flange distance and everything from a West German company would be for the 28.8mm flange distance?
Regards, C. |
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iangreenhalgh1
![Level 4 Level 4](rating4.gif) Joined: 18 Mar 2011 Posts: 15679
Expire: 2014-01-07
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Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:32 am Post subject: |
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iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
The vast majority of Soviet M39 lenses are 28.8mm for rangefinders. The only Soviet M39 lenses with the longer flange focal distance are for the early Zenit SLRs and the one you will see most often is the Helios 44. _________________ I don't care who designed it, who made it or what country it comes from - I just enjoy using it! |
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sergtum
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 14 Nov 2016 Posts: 735
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Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:03 am Post subject: |
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sergtum wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote: |
The vast majority of Soviet M39 lenses are 28.8mm for rangefinders. The only Soviet M39 lenses with the longer flange focal distance are for the early Zenit SLRs and the one you will see most often is the Helios 44.
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I know the following models of the Soviet M39 lenses М39х1 (45,2 мм):
ИндуÑтар-22
ИндуÑтар-50
ИндуÑтар-24Ðœ
Мир-1
Юпитер-6
Юпитер-9
Юпитер-11
Юпитер-21
ГелиоÑ-40
ГелиоÑ-44
Телемар-22
Таир-11
Таир-3
I may have forgotten some lenses |
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iangreenhalgh1
![Level 4 Level 4](rating4.gif) Joined: 18 Mar 2011 Posts: 15679
Expire: 2014-01-07
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Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:48 am Post subject: |
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iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Alright then, the vast majority of Soviet M39 lenses imported into Western Europe are with 28.8mm FFD for rangefinders.
The I-22 and I-50 are found in both M39 variants, so your list is confusing. _________________ I don't care who designed it, who made it or what country it comes from - I just enjoy using it! |
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D1N0
![Level 4 Level 4](rating4.gif) Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 2530
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Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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D1N0 wrote:
The Industar 50 for m39 SLR look like the industar 50-2 for m42. The ones for rangefinder/Ltm don't _________________ pentaxian |
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DConvert
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 12 Jun 2010 Posts: 921 Location: Essex UK
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Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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DConvert wrote:
Most M39 (actually M39 at 26tpi) lenses are either:
SLR - Zenit S/ZM39 (flange distance 45.2)
Rangefinder - Leica screw/LTM/L39 (flange distance 28.
or enlarger lenses of no fixed flange distance
but there are quite a few more with the same threads yet different flange distances:
The Industar 69 from the Chaika half frame rangefinder with flange distance around 28mm (definitely shorter than LTM but easily modified to LTM)
Leitz viscoflex I has flange distance 40
Paxette series II has flange distance 44 (one source claims 45.7)
Kilarscope has flange distance 78.8
Kilarflex has flange distance 92.3
Going to other thread patterns while still M39:
Copal #1 lenses have a M39x0.75 mounting thread
Canon S lenses are mainly LTM, but the earliest are supposedly M39x1 the difference is tiny so this could be a measuring error.
Canon J lenses are reported as M39 at 24tpi
I've got the first 4 listed here all the others are just info collected from the web over the years ![Smile](images/smiles/icon_smile.gif)
Last edited by DConvert on Sat Feb 25, 2023 6:48 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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iangreenhalgh1
![Level 4 Level 4](rating4.gif) Joined: 18 Mar 2011 Posts: 15679
Expire: 2014-01-07
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Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
I think Copal/Compur #1 is 40mm, but I'm not sure without checking, I do know you can't screw an M39 lens into one. _________________ I don't care who designed it, who made it or what country it comes from - I just enjoy using it! |
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calvin83
![Level 4 Level 4](rating4.gif) Joined: 12 Apr 2009 Posts: 7555 Location: Hong Kong
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Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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calvin83 wrote:
Don't forget the Braun M39 lenses wit 44mm flange distance _________________ https://lensfever.com/
https://www.instagram.com/_lens_fever/
The best lens is the one you have with you. |
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connloyalist
![Level 2 Level 2](rating2.gif) Joined: 22 Jul 2020 Posts: 331 Location: the Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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connloyalist wrote:
Reading the above replies I get the impression that M39 is the most varied size there is.
Would it be fair to say that as a rule of thumb (!), Russian lenses could be either 28.8mm or 45.2mm, and with some exceptions as noted most other lenses are probably 28.8mm but you can't be sure until you try?
It just occurred to me that I inherited an EXA to M39 and an M39 to EXA adapter with a lens I bought a while back. At least I assume it is M39 because it is too small for M42. I am assuming this is M39 at 45.2mm. The M39 (lens) to EXA (camera) looks like it could be correct for 45.2mm (haven't measured it). I don't see how you would go from EXA lens to M39 camera at 45.2mm while retaining infinity focus. These two adapters do fit each other both ways around.
Regards, C. |
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DConvert
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 12 Jun 2010 Posts: 921 Location: Essex UK
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Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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DConvert wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote: |
I think Copal/Compur #1 is 40mm, but I'm not sure without checking, I do know you can't screw an M39 lens into one. |
According to my crib-sheet the front half of the lens mounts onto the shutter with a 40mmx0.75 thread the rear part uses a m36x0.75 & the shutter to lens board is M39x0.75 (a finer pitch than the normal M39 lenses) but it also has the standard lensboard hole as 41.6mm diameter
I don't think any of my standard shuttered lenses are as big as Copal#1 - I have Copal#00 & Copal#0 as well as some non standard sizes from old folding cameras. |
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DConvert
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 12 Jun 2010 Posts: 921 Location: Essex UK
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Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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DConvert wrote:
connloyalist wrote: |
Reading the above replies I get the impression that M39 is the most varied size there is.
Would it be fair to say that as a rule of thumb (!), Russian lenses could be either 28.8mm or 45.2mm, and with some exceptions as noted most other lenses are probably 28.8mm but you can't be sure until you try?
It just occurred to me that I inherited an EXA to M39 and an M39 to EXA adapter with a lens I bought a while back. At least I assume it is M39 because it is too small for M42. I am assuming this is M39 at 45.2mm. The M39 (lens) to EXA (camera) looks like it could be correct for 45.2mm (haven't measured it). I don't see how you would go from EXA lens to M39 camera at 45.2mm while retaining infinity focus. These two adapters do fit each other both ways around.
Regards, C. |
Is the EXA to M39 model for LTM cameras?
If you adapter allows infinity focus on LTM lenses you can use an extension tube for ZM39 (The longest of my Russian M39 set is perfect for this).
Most of the options are relatively unusual. For the common ones a quick google will usually find descriptions that explicitly state LTM or Zenit. The Industar 50 is the biggest potential difficulty as several quite different designs seem to be called the same thing!
My Ind. 50 is collapsible looking very much like the Ind 10, others are far wider & look like the Ind 50-2 on tubes... |
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jamaeolus
![Level 4 Level 4](rating4.gif) Joined: 19 Mar 2014 Posts: 2958 Location: Eugene
Expire: 2015-08-20
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Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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jamaeolus wrote:
calvin83 wrote: |
Don't forget the Braun M39 lenses with 44mm flange distance |
Yeah, I have a few of these Staeble Choro, Lineogon Kata. Some very nice glass. Piesker too IIRC _________________ photos are moments frozen in time |
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connloyalist
![Level 2 Level 2](rating2.gif) Joined: 22 Jul 2020 Posts: 331 Location: the Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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connloyalist wrote:
DConvert wrote: |
Is the EXA to M39 model for LTM cameras?
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I don't think so. It has practically no length to it. When attached to an EXA lens the M39 threads end up being within the flange on the exakta lens.
With EXA being 44.7mm if you attached that to a 45.2mm M39 camera mount it wouldn't focus to infinity. If it were a 28.8mm M39 camera mount it would be much too short and as you say would require an extension tube.
The two adapters obviously are not a pair. The M39 to EXA is quite heavy, probably steel. The EXA to M39 is very lightweight, feels like aluminum.
Regards, C. |
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BurstMox
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 04 Dec 2011 Posts: 2013 Location: France
Expire: 2016-08-02
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Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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BurstMox wrote:
sergtum wrote: |
iangreenhalgh1 wrote: |
The vast majority of Soviet M39 lenses are 28.8mm for rangefinders. The only Soviet M39 lenses with the longer flange focal distance are for the early Zenit SLRs and the one you will see most often is the Helios 44.
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I know the following models of the Soviet M39 lenses М39х1 (45,2 мм):
ИндуÑтар-22
ИндуÑтар-50
ИндуÑтар-24Ðœ
Мир-1
Юпитер-6
Юпитер-9
Юпитер-11
Юпитер-21
ГелиоÑ-40
ГелиоÑ-44
Телемар-22
Таир-11
Таир-3
I may have forgotten some lenses |
I have never seen any silver Jupiter-21 (m39) exepted the only photo proving it existed.
But the Industar-61 L/Z can be tricky, in early years (1971, maybe 1972), it was available in M42 and M39 (it is written in the 1971 catalog). I have met so far only 2 of them, so the vaste majority was in M42, but still... _________________ Pierre
sovietlenses.fr
Soviet lenses Facebook group |
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DConvert
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 12 Jun 2010 Posts: 921 Location: Essex UK
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Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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DConvert wrote:
connloyalist wrote: |
DConvert wrote: |
Is the EXA to M39 model for LTM cameras?
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I don't think so. It has practically no length to it. When attached to an EXA lens the M39 threads end up being within the flange on the exakta lens.
With EXA being 44.7mm if you attached that to a 45.2mm M39 camera mount it wouldn't focus to infinity. If it were a 28.8mm M39 camera mount it would be much too short and as you say would require an extension tube.
The two adapters obviously are not a pair. The M39 to EXA is quite heavy, probably steel. The EXA to M39 is very lightweight, feels like aluminum.
Regards, C. |
If just within the Exa flange that suggests Braun/Paxette (44mm flange) it would have to be quite heavily recessed for the other shorter mounts. |
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Lightshow
![Level 4 Level 4](rating4.gif) Joined: 04 Nov 2011 Posts: 3666 Location: Calgary
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Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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Lightshow wrote:
M39 is only a diameter of thread measurement, its actually a bit too vague IMO, like calling AR, SR, EF , F, etc "Bayonet Mount" but sadly that's the mess we're given to deal with from manufacturers that didn't consider how things would change in the future with regard to adapting lenses from every conceivable mount made and the confusion it will unleash on the novice adapter enthusiast, thankfully there are resources such as this wonderful site full of wonderful sharing/helpful people to help lift the fog of confusion and make adapting as painless as it can be.
![Happy Dog](images/smiles/happy-dog.gif) _________________ A Manual Focus Junky...
One photographers junk lens is an artists favorite tool.
My lens list
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lightshow-photography/ |
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sergtum
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 14 Nov 2016 Posts: 735
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:32 am Post subject: |
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sergtum wrote:
BurstMox wrote: |
I have never seen any silver Jupiter-21 (m39) exepted the only photo proving it existed.
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oh yes! i'm too
http://www.photohistory.ru/1207248189176748.html
additionally I have remembered that the MTO lenses also had an M39 thread (45,2 мм). |
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D1N0
![Level 4 Level 4](rating4.gif) Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 2530
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:10 am Post subject: |
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D1N0 wrote:
But Why is the 21m so much heavier than the 21 and 21A. Respectively 980,690 and 740grams. Did they put in a bigger hunk of glass? _________________ pentaxian |
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BurstMox
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 04 Dec 2011 Posts: 2013 Location: France
Expire: 2016-08-02
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:40 am Post subject: |
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BurstMox wrote:
D1N0 wrote: |
But Why is the 21m so much heavier than the 21 and 21A. Respectively 980,690 and 740grams. Did they put in a bigger hunk of glass? |
Different construction, 21M has an auto-preset system. 21A has a simple preset system (2 rings). _________________ Pierre
sovietlenses.fr
Soviet lenses Facebook group |
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D1N0
![Level 4 Level 4](rating4.gif) Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 2530
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:03 am Post subject: |
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D1N0 wrote:
BurstMox wrote: |
D1N0 wrote: |
But Why is the 21m so much heavier than the 21 and 21A. Respectively 980,690 and 740grams. Did they put in a bigger hunk of glass? |
Different construction, 21M has an auto-preset system. 21A has a simple preset system (2 rings). |
That has to be the worst designed automatic aperture ever then if it ads 240 grams. It also feels pretty shaky to me when operating. _________________ pentaxian |
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titrisol70
![Level 1 Level 1](rating1.gif) Joined: 14 Dec 2021 Posts: 177 Location: State of Denial
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Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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titrisol70 wrote:
I have a Zorki4 that came with a Jupiter 8, camera never worked right and was boxed
A few weeks back I received a Leica IIIf (Elmar 50/3.5) from a friend and I brought the J8 back from the box with the idea to use it.
Len fit well in the camera. However, the cam that moves the RF wheel is of different lengths, and thus the RF doesnt work with both lenses
At infinity I have 7.83mm in the Elmar but only 7.76mm on the J8.
Elmar (10ft) 3.05m 6.68mm J8 3m 6.60
I managed to bring the Zorki4 to open in B mode (at least) and got the same results.
While in a ground glass both were focusing correctly, the RF was out of whack for the Elmar.
In conclusion the cam lenghts are not standard in the FSU lenses, and basically you have to calibrate your camera RF per lens _________________ Pentaxian and proud
Cameras: Spotmatic, I and F, Pentax ME, MESuper, ME-F, P30t, K-x, MZ-5, Mz-7 // K100D, Kx, K5IIs, K3-iii
M42 Asahi Optical Co., Lenses:
Super Takumar 1:4.5/20, 1:3.5/28, 1:1.8/55, 1:1.4/50 (7-element), 1:3.5/135
Super-Multi-Coated Fisheye-TAKUMAR 1:4/17
Super-Multi-Coated TAKUMAR 1:3.5/28, 1:3.5/35, 1:1.8/55, 1:1.4/50, 1:2.8/105, 1:3.5/135, 1:4/200
Super-Multi-Coated Macro-TAKUMAR 1:4/50
Lots of M, A, F, FA, DA series lenses |
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philslizzy
![Level 4 Level 4](rating4.gif) Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 4743 Location: Cheshire, England
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Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2023 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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philslizzy wrote:
OK in flange focal distance order you have these common 39mm standards that cause confusion:
Soviet Chaika. The lenses have a 27.5 mm focal distance (the 28mm f2.8 will fit a Leica but it wont focus, or cover the frame)
The LTM (Leica thread mount) is British standard, 39mm by 26 turns per inch and a flange focal of 28.8mm
Soviet rangefinder lenses are M39, to all intents and purposes the same as LTM. (Although the RF coupling isn't precisely the same, I've never experienced issues.)
B39 (AKA M39) for Braun Paxette. 44mm FFD
ZM39 Soviet Zenit, with an FFD of 45.2mm (NOT 45.46 as reported elsewhere)
Some Leitz and other lenses may have an LTM screw designed for the PLOOT or Visoflex 1 (62.5mm FFD),
Kilarscope (78.8mm FFD) and Kilarflex (92.3mm FFD) though those tend to be 400mm or over lenses.
Then there are enlarging lenses. Standard M39 or LTM screw fit, but no fixed back focus
The Chinese Great Wall, which just had the one lens FFD unknown but likely to be > 60mm
To my knowledge the early Canon Hansa models used a bayonet mount (invented by Nikon) then changed to LTM. I'm not aware of a different screw thread. _________________ Hero in the 'messin-with-cameras-for-the-hell-of-it department'. Official.
Last edited by philslizzy on Thu Nov 02, 2023 6:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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visualopsins
![Level 4 Level 4](rating4.gif) Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 10946 Location: California
Expire: 2025-04-11
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Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2023 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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visualopsins wrote:
philslizzy! _________________ ☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮ like attracts like! ☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮
Cameras: Sony ILCE-7RM2, Spotmatics II, F, and ESII, Nikon P4
Lenses:
M42 Asahi Optical Co., Takumar 1:4 f=35mm, 1:2 f=58mm (Sonnar), 1:2.4 f=58mm (Heliar), 1:2.2 f=55mm (Gaussian), 1:2.8 f=105mm (Model I), 1:2.8/105 (Model II), 1:5.6/200, Tele-Takumar 1:5.6/200, 1:6.3/300, Macro-Takumar 1:4/50, Auto-Takumar 1:2.3 f=35, 1:1.8 f=55mm, 1:2.2 f=55mm, Super-TAKUMAR 1:3.5/28 (fat), 1:2/35 (Fat), 1:1.4/50 (8-element), Super-Multi-Coated Fisheye-TAKUMAR 1:4/17, Super-Multi-Coated TAKUMAR 1:4.5/20, 1:3.5/24, 1:3.5/28, 1:2/35, 1:3.5/35, 1:1.8/85, 1:1.9/85 1:2.8/105, 1:3.5/135, 1:2.5/135 (II), 1:4/150, 1:4/200, 1:4/300, 1:4.5/500, Super-Multi-Coated Macro-TAKUMAR 1:4/50, 1:4/100, Super-Multi-Coated Bellows-TAKUMAR 1:4/100, SMC TAKUMAR 1:1.4/50, 1:1.8/55
M42 Carl Zeiss Jena Flektogon 2.4/35
Contax Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* 28-70mm F3.5-4.5
Pentax K-mount SMC PENTAX-A ZOOM 1:3.5 35~105mm, SMC PENTAX ZOOM 1:4 45~125mm
Nikon Micro-NIKKOR-P-C Auto 1:3.5 f=55mm, NIKKOR-P Auto 105mm f/2.5 Pre-AI (Sonnar), Micro-NIKKOR 105mm 1:4 AI, NIKKOR AI-S 35-135mm f/3,5-4,5
Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (51B), Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (151B), SP 500mm f/8 (55BB), SP 70-210mm f/3.5 (19AH)
Vivitar 100mm 1:2.8 MC 1:1 Macro Telephoto (Kiron)
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