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Helios 77M-4 better than Helios 44-2?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:20 am    Post subject: Helios 77M-4 better than Helios 44-2? Reply with quote
Hi.

I own a nice copy of an Helios 44-2 (1983 Valdai plant version) but I'm tempted to get my hands on a Helios 77M-4 MC.
I've seen some sample photos and they look sharp and got the same swirl effect as the 44.2.
I use the Helios for portrait work featuring swirl bokeh on the background.
My cameras are micro 4/3 system, so 58mm f/2 will be 116mm f/4, and 50mm f/1.8 will be 100mm f/3.6.
I value subject isolation and blured background with nice rounded and visible bokeh.
Do you think the 77M-4 will be as good as the 44-2 or better?
Losing 16mm would give a bit less subject isolation but I think the f/1.8 over the f/2 will compensate that and in the end it will give the same look.

Any thoughts?


PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I own a few copies of Helios 44-2 and a few 77M-4 and to me, the 77M-4 is sharper than 44-2 but also a little less swirly when it comes to the bokeh characteristics. It has a different filter thread diameter: 52mm (44-2 has 49mm) and is also a bit heavier than 44-2. I recommend using it with a proper hood beacause it flares heavily just like most of the Soviet-era lenses. As far as I know, there are 4 versions of this lens:
1) Vologda MC Helios 77M-4
2) Valdai MC Helios 77M-4
3) Valdai MC Helios 77K-4 (Pentax mount)
4) Unknown factory (no logo) MS Helios 77M
The last one is pretty rare and has a different colour-coating.

Last edited by Humulus on Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:47 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Humulus wrote:
I own a few copies of Helios 44-2 and a few 77M-4 and to me, the 77M-4 is sharper than 44-2 but also a little less swirly when it comes to the bokeh characteristics. It has a different filter thread diameter: 52mm (44-2 has 49mm) and is also a bit heavier than 44-2. I recommend using it with a proper hood beacause it flares heavily just like most of the Soviet-era lenses. As far as I know, there are 4 versions of this lens:
1) Vologda MC Helios 77M-4
2) Valdai MC Helios 77M-4
3) Valdai MC Helios 77K-4 (Pentax mount)
4) Unkonown factory (no logo) MS Helios 77M
The last one is pretty rare and has a different colour-coating.


Wow!
Many thank's for the quick answer and complete information.
If the 77M-4 is sharper it's a good thing. That's what I suspected.
It may be a lit less swirly in bokeh, but in some of the samples I've seen it is enough swirly for me.
Here are some samples on Flickr:

HELIOS 77M-4 (50MM F1.Cool M42 @1.8 by GIACOMO FERRI, on Flickr

This is what I want to do in portraits:

Maria by Alexandra Bochkareva, on Flickr


I think I will pull the trigger and buy a 77M-4 MC.
This is the one I'm talking about:



I've been using my 44-2 without any hood.
I thought that because the front element is so recessed it may not need any hood, but I found that sometimes (not always) I end up with washed out images lacking contrast and vibrance (even without direct sun rays or flare).
I'm going to put an hood on the 44-2 and see.[/img]


PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Very nice portrait and excellent English in putting "an" instead of "a" before hood... Wink


PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Helios 77M-4 better than Helios 44-2? Reply with quote
jrsilva wrote:
Hi.

Do you think the 77M-4 will be as good as the 44-2 or better?

Any thoughts?


Helios-77M-4 is better, but only slightly. I would appreciate the difference in the 10 percent. The build quality of Helios-77M-4 is better. Swirly effect at Helios-77M-4 more pronounced (It seems so to me.) If you like the results of Helios-77M-4, Zeiss Biotar 58/2 will be a much better choice. Especially the old brass version with 17 diaphragm blades.


PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Helios 77M-4 better than Helios 44-2? Reply with quote
D. P. wrote:
jrsilva wrote:
Hi.

Do you think the 77M-4 will be as good as the 44-2 or better?

Any thoughts?


Helios-77M-4 is better, but only slightly. I would appreciate the difference in the 10 percent. The build quality of Helios-77M-4 is better. If you like the results of Helios-77M-4, Zeiss Biotar 58/2 will be a much better choice. Especially the old brass version with 17 diaphragm blades.


Thank you D.P.
I'm going to take a closer look at the Biotar.
I've never toke much attention to that because I have a feeling that it's price is on another league and I already have the cheap copy (Helios 44-2).
For now, I may pick up the 77M-4 because it's affordable.


PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Helios 77M-4 better than Helios 44-2? Reply with quote
jrsilva wrote:

I've never toke much attention to that because I have a feeling that it's price is on another league


Yes, prices slightly different Smile If Biotar too expensive, there is another candidate - old Helios-44 with 13 blades and M39-mount (the so-called "white Helios")


PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Also remember that the 77M-4 (or 77M if you're lucky enough to find it) does not have a A/M switch - be sure to buy the adapter that blocks the lenses aperture pin. You don't have this problem with the 44-2 since it has an aperture that's fully manual.


PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Humulus wrote:
Also remember that the 77M-4 (or 77M if you're lucky enough to find it) does not have a A/M switch - be sure to buy the adapter that blocks the lenses aperture pin. You don't have this problem with the 44-2 since it has an aperture that's fully manual.


Thank's for the heads up Wink
I'm aware of that. I've got a few M42 lenses now and only the first adapter I've purchased doesn't block the aperture pins on such lenses.

Just one more question:
Does the 77M-4 have aperture clicks between f stops?
On old manual lenses I prefer continuous aperture but that will not be a decisive point.


PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
jrsilva wrote:
Just one more question:
Does the 77M-4 have aperture clicks between f stops?
On old manual lenses I prefer continuous aperture but that will not be a decisive point.


Yes. Helios-77m-4 - is not very old lens, producing stopped in the late 90s.


PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
D. P. wrote:
jrsilva wrote:
Just one more question:
Does the 77M-4 have aperture clicks between f stops?
On old manual lenses I prefer continuous aperture but that will not be a decisive point.


Yes. Helios-77m-4 - is not very old lens, producing stopped in the late 90s.



Thank you D.P.

That's a bit sad.
On my 44-2 I can stop down just a tiny bit (around f/2.5 or something like that) to ensure sharpness but without compromising the characteristic bokeh effect.
On the 77M-4 one have to jump from f/1.8 to f/2.8. There's no in between.


PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
There are actually 2 clicks between f/1.8 and f/2.8 so don't worry Smile


PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I see you are on mirrorless camera.
So don't forget the Helios-103 53mm/1.8 which is a great performer, and a lot cheaper. You only need kiev adapter, which is now not that expensive (cheaper than before).
It is an Helios, so naturely has swirling bokeh.


PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Humulus wrote:
There are actually 2 clicks between f/1.8 and f/2.8 so don't worry Smile


Great!! Very Happy
Thank you.

Looks like you know very well the Helios line, so allow me to ask you wish do you prefer:
Helios 44M-7 or Helios 77M-4 ?


PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
jrsilva wrote:

Looks like you know very well the Helios line, so allow me to ask you wish do you prefer:
Helios 44M-7 or Helios 77M-4 ?

I own many varieties of Helios-44 from the early aluminium 44 to the latest 44M-7 with a modified lens barrel. I have at least 3 copies of 44M-7. The only Helios I am always keeping attached to an adapter (EOS-M42) is a Vologda 77M-4. To me, it is the sharpest and the most contrasty standard focal length Helios of the bunch. I also own a 58mm f/2 CZJ Biotar but I see no difference between it and the Helios-44 line. Of course, when I am in need of something sharper (and with smooth bokeh), I take out my trusty and almost indestructible KMZ Zenitar-M 50mm f/1.7.


PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Zenitar 50/1.7 is one of my favourite lenses ,
I would recommend to all.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
BurstMox wrote:
I see you are on mirrorless camera.
So don't forget the Helios-103 53mm/1.8 which is a great performer, and a lot cheaper. You only need kiev adapter, which is now not that expensive (cheaper than before).
It is an Helios, so naturely has swirling bokeh.

The Helios 103 is IMO not very swirly.
And it is sharp, only, it's not the most robust built lens.
I only have one shot from it online...



From :http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic,p,1472777.html#1472777

Helios 44


PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Humulus wrote:
jrsilva wrote:

Looks like you know very well the Helios line, so allow me to ask you wish do you prefer:
Helios 44M-7 or Helios 77M-4 ?

I own many varieties of Helios-44 from the early aluminium 44 to the latest 44M-7 with a modified lens barrel. I have at least 3 copies of 44M-7. The only Helios I am always keeping attached to an adapter (EOS-M42) is a Vologda 77M-4. To me, it is the sharpest and the most contrasty standard focal length Helios of the bunch. I also own a 58mm f/2 CZJ Biotar but I see no difference between it and the Helios-44 line. Of course, when I am in need of something sharper (and with smooth bokeh), I take out my trusty and almost indestructible KMZ Zenitar-M 50mm f/1.7.


Thank you!
I'm now more confident about getting an Helios 77M-4.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lightshow,I agree that's not the most swirling bokeh lens, but still have this. Naturely depend of background.
Here is an exemple I took this morning with Helios-103 on A7 :


PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
BurstMox wrote:
Lightshow,I agree that's not the most swirling bokeh lens, but still have this. Naturely depend of background.
Here is an exemple I took this morning with Helios-103 on A7 :


Very nice Like 1 small
I think if you shot a subject more far away from the background you could get an even more pronounced effect.


PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Humulus wrote:
I own a few copies of Helios 44-2 and a few 77M-4 and to me, the 77M-4 is sharper than 44-2 but also a little less swirly when it comes to the bokeh characteristics. It has a different filter thread diameter: 52mm (44-2 has 49mm) and is also a bit heavier than 44-2. I recommend using it with a proper hood beacause it flares heavily just like most of the Soviet-era lenses. As far as I know, there are 4 versions of this lens:
1) Vologda MC Helios 77M-4
2) Valdai MC Helios 77M-4
3) Valdai MC Helios 77K-4 (Pentax mount)
4) Unknown factory (no logo) MS Helios 77M
The last one is pretty rare and has a different colour-coating.


The Helios 44 has a 58mm focal length, this is a big difference.


PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm using Helios 77m-4 with Lens Turbo II speedbooster.
It has nice swirly bokeh and good sharpnesss stopped down (usually to fCool. My samples
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmcxZdkz
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