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screwunscrew
Joined: 20 Nov 2011 Posts: 59 Location: Äsch, Switzerland
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:21 pm Post subject: The Kern C-mount and D-mount ciné taking lenses |
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screwunscrew wrote:
Kern & Co. of Aarau, Switzerland, produced a range of prime lenses for 16-mm. film movie cameras and a line of lenses for 8-mm. film movie cameras. I have collected some general information about them.
All Kern lenses marked AR have an Anti-Reflection coating. This designation has nothing to do with a reflex viewing system, it only means that the lens is coated for better rendition.
Yvar is the designation for triplets with two exceptions. One is the Yvar 25 mm, f/1.8 for 16-mm. film, the other is the Yvar 13 mm, f/1.8 for 8-mm. film. Both have four elements.
Pizar and Genevar for 16-mm. film have five elements in four groups, a design similar to the 1924 Ernostar. Research on the Pizar wide-angle designs continues.
Switar basically are six-element lenses, the 25 mm being a Double-Gauss variant. Why there are 25-mm Switar f/1.4 and f/1.5 I haven’t been able to find an explanation for. Possibly the f/1.5 version was cheaper and pushed into special segments of the market. Pizar 25 mm, f/1.5 are identical with Switar 25 mm, f/1.4 but were sold only as RX lenses.
All Kern lenses marked RX have a positive element in addition to correct for the prismatic displacement of the image plane introduced by the viewfinder double-prism system of Paillard-Bolex H REFLEX cameras. Stopped down to f/3.3 and more or with a focal length longer than 50 mm the error becomes negligible and any lens may be used with Paillard-Bolex H REFLEX cameras. Vice versa a RX lens can be used on any other camera when enough stopped down or of 50 mm focal length or more. Angénieux, Benoist-Berthiot, and Schneider made RX lenses, too.
The C-mount Macro-Switar for the H-8 REFLEX camera are apochromatically corrected. The 12.5 mm, f/1.3 follows the seven-elements Macro-Switar made for the ALPA SLR photographic camera.
The C-mount Switar 10 mm, f/1.6 and the D-mount Switar 13 mm, f/0.9 have ten elements in five groups. |
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screwunscrew
Joined: 20 Nov 2011 Posts: 59 Location: Äsch, Switzerland
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:03 am Post subject: |
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screwunscrew wrote:
A PDF of a brochure showing the design of some Kern ciné lenses
http://www.apecity.com/manuals/pdf/bolex_lenses_tech_bulletin.pdf |
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kds315*
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 16623 Location: Weinheim, Germany
Expire: 2021-03-09
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:15 am Post subject: |
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kds315* wrote:
Wonderful contribution, thank you so much!!
I always liked them, have a few myself (c-mount and d-mount).
The elusive Macro-Switar f1.1/26mm is not mentioned, as well as the f0.9/13mm d-mount,
do you know more about it?
I also have and like a lot the Macro-Switar f1.9/75mm, is there more about it?
Fantastic lens it is...shoudl use it much more often!
I also have the 5.5mm ASPHERON wide angle adapter, but never succeded to get
it to work.... Does it only work with the f1.6/10mm Macro-Switar?
The RX vs non-RX lenses is an important issue, often overlooked, as RX lenses are
corrected for that 9.5mm thick beam splitter glass cube inside the camera (which by
the old astronomer's rule shifts the focus by 1/3, so about 3.2mm). Could you please
elaborate more about it in praxi? It is rather sad to have to stop down those
wonderful lenses before they deliver the goods (as I shoot open often)....
I found something about it here:
http://city-net.com/~fodder/bolex/truth.html
http://www.c-mountlens.com/2011/bolex-reflex-rx-lenses-the-difference/
http://www.bolexcollector.com/articles/07_03_21.html
http://cinetinker.blogspot.de/2014/12/rx-vs-non-rx-lenses.html (with test pattern images to compare) _________________ Klaus - Admin
"S'il vient a point, me souviendra" [Thomas Bohier (1460-1523)]
http://www.macrolenses.de for macro and special lens info
http://www.pbase.com/kds315/uv_photos for UV Images and lens/filter info
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/albums my albums using various lenses
http://photographyoftheinvisibleworld.blogspot.com/ my UV BLOG
http://www.travelmeetsfood.com/blog Food + Travel BLOG
https://galeriafotografia.com Architecture + Drone photography
Currently most FAV lens(es):
X80QF f3.2/80mm
Hypergon f11/26mm
ELCAN UV f5.6/52mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f4/60mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f2/62mm
Lomo Уфар-12 f2.5/41mm
Lomo Зуфар-2 f4.0/350mm
Lomo ZIKAR-1A f1.2/100mm
Nikon UV Nikkor f4.5/105mm
Zeiss UV-Sonnar f4.3/105mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f1.8/45mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f4.1/94mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f2.8/100mm
Steinheil Quarzobjektiv f1.8/50mm
Pentax Quartz Takumar f3.5/85mm
Carl Zeiss Jena UV-Objektiv f4/60mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha II f1.1/90mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha I f2.8/200mm
COASTAL OPTICS f4/60mm UV-VIS-IR Apo
COASTAL OPTICS f4.5/105mm UV-Micro-Apo
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f4.5/85mm
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f5.6/300mm
Rodenstock UV-Rodagon f5.6/60mm + 105mm + 150mm
Last edited by kds315* on Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:00 am; edited 9 times in total |
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kds315*
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 16623 Location: Weinheim, Germany
Expire: 2021-03-09
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:19 am Post subject: |
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kds315* wrote:
Here is a nice 1981 broschure about the cameras and lenses:
http://www.apecity.com/manuals/pdf/bolex_16mm_catalog_1981.pdf _________________ Klaus - Admin
"S'il vient a point, me souviendra" [Thomas Bohier (1460-1523)]
http://www.macrolenses.de for macro and special lens info
http://www.pbase.com/kds315/uv_photos for UV Images and lens/filter info
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/albums my albums using various lenses
http://photographyoftheinvisibleworld.blogspot.com/ my UV BLOG
http://www.travelmeetsfood.com/blog Food + Travel BLOG
https://galeriafotografia.com Architecture + Drone photography
Currently most FAV lens(es):
X80QF f3.2/80mm
Hypergon f11/26mm
ELCAN UV f5.6/52mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f4/60mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f2/62mm
Lomo Уфар-12 f2.5/41mm
Lomo Зуфар-2 f4.0/350mm
Lomo ZIKAR-1A f1.2/100mm
Nikon UV Nikkor f4.5/105mm
Zeiss UV-Sonnar f4.3/105mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f1.8/45mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f4.1/94mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f2.8/100mm
Steinheil Quarzobjektiv f1.8/50mm
Pentax Quartz Takumar f3.5/85mm
Carl Zeiss Jena UV-Objektiv f4/60mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha II f1.1/90mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha I f2.8/200mm
COASTAL OPTICS f4/60mm UV-VIS-IR Apo
COASTAL OPTICS f4.5/105mm UV-Micro-Apo
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f4.5/85mm
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f5.6/300mm
Rodenstock UV-Rodagon f5.6/60mm + 105mm + 150mm
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screwunscrew
Joined: 20 Nov 2011 Posts: 59 Location: Äsch, Switzerland
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:40 am Post subject: |
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screwunscrew wrote:
The RX macro Switar 26mm f/1.1 is a near apochromatic system, built from 1968 on.
I do not know exactly what the design is but I assume seven elements in five
groups, a retro system derived from the Macro-Switar 50mm f/1.8 for 24 × 36.
It has some lateral and little longitudinal chromatic aberration.
The Switar 13mm f/0.9 consists of ten elements in five groups, basically five
achromats with the iris between the last and the second last group.
The (macro) Switar 75mm f/1.9 has six free standing elements.
We could discuss for hours about the Paillard-Bolex cameras and their use but
this is a lenses forum so I think we should abstain. I have repaired RX cameras
and find the mechanics rather delicate, even more so when seen against the
matte surface etched directly on one of the coupled prisms. Optical ruggedness
here and tiny set screws lacquered in very short threads there. Also the long prism
that diverts laterally is set with cork pieces only. They dry out, the prism can come
loose. I have tried rubber pieces and brass bands bent into a wavy form. Everything
is better than Paillard’s super cheap solution. |
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kds315*
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 16623 Location: Weinheim, Germany
Expire: 2021-03-09
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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kds315* wrote:
Thanks a lot, ver helpful!! _________________ Klaus - Admin
"S'il vient a point, me souviendra" [Thomas Bohier (1460-1523)]
http://www.macrolenses.de for macro and special lens info
http://www.pbase.com/kds315/uv_photos for UV Images and lens/filter info
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/albums my albums using various lenses
http://photographyoftheinvisibleworld.blogspot.com/ my UV BLOG
http://www.travelmeetsfood.com/blog Food + Travel BLOG
https://galeriafotografia.com Architecture + Drone photography
Currently most FAV lens(es):
X80QF f3.2/80mm
Hypergon f11/26mm
ELCAN UV f5.6/52mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f4/60mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f2/62mm
Lomo Уфар-12 f2.5/41mm
Lomo Зуфар-2 f4.0/350mm
Lomo ZIKAR-1A f1.2/100mm
Nikon UV Nikkor f4.5/105mm
Zeiss UV-Sonnar f4.3/105mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f1.8/45mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f4.1/94mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f2.8/100mm
Steinheil Quarzobjektiv f1.8/50mm
Pentax Quartz Takumar f3.5/85mm
Carl Zeiss Jena UV-Objektiv f4/60mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha II f1.1/90mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha I f2.8/200mm
COASTAL OPTICS f4/60mm UV-VIS-IR Apo
COASTAL OPTICS f4.5/105mm UV-Micro-Apo
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f4.5/85mm
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f5.6/300mm
Rodenstock UV-Rodagon f5.6/60mm + 105mm + 150mm
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screwunscrew
Joined: 20 Nov 2011 Posts: 59 Location: Äsch, Switzerland
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Posted: Mon May 02, 2016 8:21 am Post subject: |
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screwunscrew wrote:
Now it is getting weird. A rather unknown early ciné C-mount Kern lens
is the 25 mm f/2,5. I have deliberately omitted the Yvar brand
because that same design existed already before the 1942 contract
between Kern and Paillard. Have a look yourselves:
These are screen shots out of a video I have found (https://vimeo.com/83959697).
What makes me wonder is the resemblance of the one in the first picture with the Wollensak Ciné Raptar 17mm f/2,7
and of the one in the second picture with the Wollensak Ciné Raptar f/1,9 that was produced both C-mount and D-mount. Only the one in the third image has the outer appearance it then continued to have when given the YVAR designation.
What do you scientists think of this? |
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calvin83
Joined: 12 Apr 2009 Posts: 7555 Location: Hong Kong
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Posted: Mon May 02, 2016 9:06 am Post subject: |
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calvin83 wrote:
Many pre-war lenses looks more or less the same to me. _________________ https://lensfever.com/
https://www.instagram.com/_lens_fever/
The best lens is the one you have with you. |
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screwunscrew
Joined: 20 Nov 2011 Posts: 59 Location: Äsch, Switzerland
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: The Kern C-mount and D-mount ciné taking lenses |
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screwunscrew wrote:
screwunscrew wrote: |
Yvar is the designation for triplets with two exceptions. |
Wrong. The third exception is the Macro-Yvar 150, f/3.3, which has four separate elements, namely an additional one in front of the frontal positive element. Logical, for shorter conjugates. I know because I have disassembled one today, pictures to follow.
It seems appropriate to assume that the 100 mm Macro-Yvar is a four-elements lens, too. That needs confirmation. |
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paulhofseth
Joined: 05 Mar 2011 Posts: 574 Location: Norway
Expire: 2018-06-28
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Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:56 pm Post subject: SPECS |
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paulhofseth wrote:
If the picture upload worked the enclosed graphs of the Cine Switar correction state might be of interest
p.
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kds315*
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 16623 Location: Weinheim, Germany
Expire: 2021-03-09
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Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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kds315* wrote:
Looks indeed excellent, thanks for sharing Paul! _________________ Klaus - Admin
"S'il vient a point, me souviendra" [Thomas Bohier (1460-1523)]
http://www.macrolenses.de for macro and special lens info
http://www.pbase.com/kds315/uv_photos for UV Images and lens/filter info
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/albums my albums using various lenses
http://photographyoftheinvisibleworld.blogspot.com/ my UV BLOG
http://www.travelmeetsfood.com/blog Food + Travel BLOG
https://galeriafotografia.com Architecture + Drone photography
Currently most FAV lens(es):
X80QF f3.2/80mm
Hypergon f11/26mm
ELCAN UV f5.6/52mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f4/60mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f2/62mm
Lomo Уфар-12 f2.5/41mm
Lomo Зуфар-2 f4.0/350mm
Lomo ZIKAR-1A f1.2/100mm
Nikon UV Nikkor f4.5/105mm
Zeiss UV-Sonnar f4.3/105mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f1.8/45mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f4.1/94mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f2.8/100mm
Steinheil Quarzobjektiv f1.8/50mm
Pentax Quartz Takumar f3.5/85mm
Carl Zeiss Jena UV-Objektiv f4/60mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha II f1.1/90mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha I f2.8/200mm
COASTAL OPTICS f4/60mm UV-VIS-IR Apo
COASTAL OPTICS f4.5/105mm UV-Micro-Apo
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f4.5/85mm
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f5.6/300mm
Rodenstock UV-Rodagon f5.6/60mm + 105mm + 150mm
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screwunscrew
Joined: 20 Nov 2011 Posts: 59 Location: Äsch, Switzerland
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Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:15 am Post subject: |
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screwunscrew wrote:
The D-mount Switar 5,5 mm f/1.8 consists of four cemented doublets, if I’m not wrong. ‒+ +‒ ?? iris ??
The D-mount Yvar-FILTIN 12,5 mm f/2.8 is a triplet. It has completely different mechanics, somewhat similar to the Switar 13-0.9. What I like about triplets which cannot be corrected for three colours is that one adds a yellow filter and all blue is gone. Most triplets are corrected for green through red. The FILTIN bears four filters, yellow-red-85-sky. So in bright sunlight for a landscape one can switch in the yellow filter and make tack sharp shots with this neat lens. There are panchromatic and non-sensitized stocks available for 8mm cameras. Long live black and white! |
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screwunscrew
Joined: 20 Nov 2011 Posts: 59 Location: Äsch, Switzerland
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Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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screwunscrew wrote:
I have to precise on the Switar 12,5 mm f/1.5. That is a six-glass lens but not symmetrical, nor a Biotar type. It’s much more a derivative of the 1958 Elmarit 90-2.8 with an additional element between the two achromatic groups.
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kymarto
Joined: 30 Nov 2016 Posts: 406 Location: Portland, OR and Milan, Italy
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Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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kymarto wrote:
I have an old RX 25mm f1.4, and I actually like it a lot for the closeup stuff that I do
My other Kern is the Macro Switar 75mm f1.9--a lens with amazing microcontrast.
_________________ Vintage lens aficionado |
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paulhofseth
Joined: 05 Mar 2011 Posts: 574 Location: Norway
Expire: 2018-06-28
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Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:26 am Post subject: |
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paulhofseth wrote:
Since this thread haas mutated into a general Kern lens thread rather than just about threadsize and mount distance, it is worth recalling that both a multielement standard lens called Genevar as well as excellent zooms were made in Aarau.
p. |
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kymarto
Joined: 30 Nov 2016 Posts: 406 Location: Portland, OR and Milan, Italy
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Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:18 am Post subject: |
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kymarto wrote:
To get back more or less on topic--I am wonder why Kern produced the Pizar 25mm f1.5, which has an identical optical design to the Switar 25mm f1.4. In addition I see that there was also a Switar 25mm f1.5. I wonder what Kern was thinking... _________________ Vintage lens aficionado |
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screwunscrew
Joined: 20 Nov 2011 Posts: 59 Location: Äsch, Switzerland
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Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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screwunscrew wrote:
Well, the Switar 25-1.5 was a cheaper version of the original for the American market. The Pizar 25 has the Visifocus iris index system in difference to the other two lenses equipped with the compass-curve indicator. Ridiculous, one may say, but it was the battle of gadgets at the time. And prices. |
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paulhofseth
Joined: 05 Mar 2011 Posts: 574 Location: Norway
Expire: 2018-06-28
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Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:52 am Post subject: |
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paulhofseth wrote:
Further to the Prism distortion issue:
Some time ago I aquired an inordinately large angenieux 15x9 made for the sony-style broadcasting cameras which separate incoming light in three streams for RGB sensors. I thought that liberated from its huge handle and motors, it would fit well with the thick cover glasses of my Olympus PenF. when switched to its shorter range. especially since it apparently has a rear adjustment for the converter (rather like the principle of matching metabones devices to particular lenses) .
I assumed that the built-in "speedbooster"-like switchable rear element would also make the image circle large enough.
It works, and takes ok snaps both at 9mm and at 126, but naturally not in its unshortened 18-252mm range. (Pictures uploaded to the german digicam club specializing in ancient glass)
p. |
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kds315*
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 16623 Location: Weinheim, Germany
Expire: 2021-03-09
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Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:56 am Post subject: |
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kds315* wrote:
paulhofseth wrote: |
Further to the Prism distortion issue:
Some time ago I aquired an inordinately large angenieux 15x9 made for the sony-style broadcasting cameras which separate incoming light in three streams for RGB sensors. I thought that liberated from its huge handle and motors, it would fit well with the thick cover glasses of my Olympus PenF. when switched to its shorter range. especially since it apparently has a rear adjustment for the converter (rather like the principle of matching metabones devices to particular lenses) .
I assumed that the built-in "speedbooster"-like switchable rear element would also make the image circle large enough.
It works, and takes ok snaps both at 9mm and at 126, but naturally not in its unshortened 18-252mm range. (Pictures uploaded to the german digicam club specializing in ancient glass)
p. |
Which section of Digicamclub did you post it to? _________________ Klaus - Admin
"S'il vient a point, me souviendra" [Thomas Bohier (1460-1523)]
http://www.macrolenses.de for macro and special lens info
http://www.pbase.com/kds315/uv_photos for UV Images and lens/filter info
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/albums my albums using various lenses
http://photographyoftheinvisibleworld.blogspot.com/ my UV BLOG
http://www.travelmeetsfood.com/blog Food + Travel BLOG
https://galeriafotografia.com Architecture + Drone photography
Currently most FAV lens(es):
X80QF f3.2/80mm
Hypergon f11/26mm
ELCAN UV f5.6/52mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f4/60mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f2/62mm
Lomo Уфар-12 f2.5/41mm
Lomo Зуфар-2 f4.0/350mm
Lomo ZIKAR-1A f1.2/100mm
Nikon UV Nikkor f4.5/105mm
Zeiss UV-Sonnar f4.3/105mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f1.8/45mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f4.1/94mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f2.8/100mm
Steinheil Quarzobjektiv f1.8/50mm
Pentax Quartz Takumar f3.5/85mm
Carl Zeiss Jena UV-Objektiv f4/60mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha II f1.1/90mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha I f2.8/200mm
COASTAL OPTICS f4/60mm UV-VIS-IR Apo
COASTAL OPTICS f4.5/105mm UV-Micro-Apo
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f4.5/85mm
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f5.6/300mm
Rodenstock UV-Rodagon f5.6/60mm + 105mm + 150mm
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paulhofseth
Joined: 05 Mar 2011 Posts: 574 Location: Norway
Expire: 2018-06-28
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Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:23 am Post subject: |
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paulhofseth wrote:
posted in the appropriate cine lens section with the heading "3 sensor-lens".
p |
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screwunscrew
Joined: 20 Nov 2011 Posts: 59 Location: Äsch, Switzerland
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:45 am Post subject: Re: The Kern C-mount and D-mount ciné taking lenses |
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screwunscrew wrote:
screwunscrew wrote: |
All Kern lenses marked RX have a positive element in addition . . . |
Terribly wrong I was. RX lenses basically follow the design of each earlier formula but are recomputed. Generally the rear group or rear element was made more positive. So the RX Switar 25 mm, f/1.4 for example still has six elements. |
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tromboads
Joined: 29 May 2012 Posts: 1655 Location: Melbourne AU
Expire: 2015-10-01
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Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:21 am Post subject: |
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tromboads wrote:
kymarto wrote: |
I have an old RX 25mm f1.4, and I actually like it a lot for the closeup stuff that I do..
My other Kern is the Macro Switar 75mm f1.9--a lens with amazing microcontrast.
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Old thread REBIRTH!
Holy heck those purple flowers! |
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