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jamaeolus
Joined: 19 Mar 2014 Posts: 2965 Location: Eugene
Expire: 2015-08-20
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:08 pm Post subject: Is this crystallization of the coating? |
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jamaeolus wrote:
I bought this Breolina to compare with one of my favorite 100s the Topcon re 100mm 2.8. It came in and at first glance looked really clear. Then I noticed these aberrant anomalies: _________________ photos are moments frozen in time |
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Blazer0ne
Joined: 12 Sep 2018 Posts: 836
Expire: 2024-12-07
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Blazer0ne wrote:
That is so weird yet they look like little flowers. |
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D1N0
Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 2532
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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D1N0 wrote:
cute, should give some interesting flare effects shooting into the light. _________________ pentaxian |
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caspert79
Joined: 31 Oct 2010 Posts: 3180 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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caspert79 wrote:
I've seen that before. Sure it's no fungus? |
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RokkorDoctor
Joined: 27 Nov 2021 Posts: 1417 Location: Kent, UK
Expire: 2025-05-01
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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RokkorDoctor wrote:
It is hard to see from the image;
This could well be fungus, but I have also seen old and progressively hardened Canada balsam separation start like that. If it is indeed crystallisation, my bet would be on old balsam rather than a coating. _________________ Mark
SONY A7S, A7RII + dust-sealed modded Novoflex/Fotodiox/Rayqual MD-NEX adapters
Minolta SR-1, SRT-101/303, XD7/XD11, XGM, X700
Bronica SQAi
Ricoh GX100
Minolta majority of all Rokkor SR/AR/MC/MD models made
Sigma 14mm/3.5 for SR mount
Tamron SP 60B 300mm/2.8 (Adaptall)
Samyang T-S 24mm/3.5 (Nikon mount, DIY converted to SR mount)
Schneider-Kreuznach PC-Super-Angulon 28mm/2.8 (SR mount)
Bronica PS 35/40/50/65/80/110/135/150/180/200/250mm |
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jamaeolus
Joined: 19 Mar 2014 Posts: 2965 Location: Eugene
Expire: 2015-08-20
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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jamaeolus wrote:
I really doubt its fungus, they are all symmetrical and various sizes and all have the exact same shape. I have some better shots I'll try to get some on here. They reflect light like a mirror. They look like little snowflakes when you get the lighting just right. _________________ photos are moments frozen in time |
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visualopsins
Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 10993 Location: California
Expire: 2025-04-11
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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visualopsins wrote:
Oil splashes?
Doesn't look like fungus to me.
Try to clean may reveal other possibilities... _________________ ☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮ like attracts like! ☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮
Cameras: Sony ILCE-7RM2, Spotmatics II, F, and ESII, Nikon P4
Lenses:
M42 Asahi Optical Co., Takumar 1:4 f=35mm, 1:2 f=58mm (Sonnar), 1:2.4 f=58mm (Heliar), 1:2.2 f=55mm (Gaussian), 1:2.8 f=105mm (Model I), 1:2.8/105 (Model II), 1:5.6/200, Tele-Takumar 1:5.6/200, 1:6.3/300, Macro-Takumar 1:4/50, Auto-Takumar 1:2.3 f=35, 1:1.8 f=55mm, 1:2.2 f=55mm, Super-TAKUMAR 1:3.5/28 (fat), 1:2/35 (Fat), 1:1.4/50 (8-element), Super-Multi-Coated Fisheye-TAKUMAR 1:4/17, Super-Multi-Coated TAKUMAR 1:4.5/20, 1:3.5/24, 1:3.5/28, 1:2/35, 1:3.5/35, 1:1.8/85, 1:1.9/85 1:2.8/105, 1:3.5/135, 1:2.5/135 (II), 1:4/150, 1:4/200, 1:4/300, 1:4.5/500, Super-Multi-Coated Macro-TAKUMAR 1:4/50, 1:4/100, Super-Multi-Coated Bellows-TAKUMAR 1:4/100, SMC TAKUMAR 1:1.4/50, 1:1.8/55
M42 Carl Zeiss Jena Flektogon 2.4/35
Contax Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* 28-70mm F3.5-4.5
Pentax K-mount SMC PENTAX-A ZOOM 1:3.5 35~105mm, SMC PENTAX ZOOM 1:4 45~125mm
Nikon Micro-NIKKOR-P-C Auto 1:3.5 f=55mm, NIKKOR-P Auto 105mm f/2.5 Pre-AI (Sonnar), Micro-NIKKOR 105mm 1:4 AI, NIKKOR AI-S 35-135mm f/3,5-4,5
Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (51B), Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (151B), SP 500mm f/8 (55BB), SP 70-210mm f/3.5 (19AH)
Vivitar 100mm 1:2.8 MC 1:1 Macro Telephoto (Kiron)
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Knudsen
Joined: 16 Jun 2021 Posts: 115 Location: Indiana
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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Knudsen wrote:
If you click the image, then click the image that opens in the new tab, it is pretty clear it is not fungus. Looks like 1970's cartoon flowers
Looks to me like something is coming unglued. _________________ ~Jon |
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RokkorDoctor
Joined: 27 Nov 2021 Posts: 1417 Location: Kent, UK
Expire: 2025-05-01
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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RokkorDoctor wrote:
Knudsen wrote: |
If you click the image, then click the image that opens in the new tab, it is pretty clear it is not fungus. Looks like 1970's cartoon flowers
Looks to me like something is coming unglued. |
Yes, I could see it enlarged now.
100% balsam separation. Sometimes this starts like that in the middle of a lens.
Here are a couple of other balsam separation examples of similar type I grabbed from the web (quite beautiful some, really):
Markus Keinath - Lens Separation Repair - 4photos.de
http://www.4photos.de/camera-diy/Delamination-Separation-Repair.html
https://9gag.com/gag/aVw6nQP
_________________ Mark
SONY A7S, A7RII + dust-sealed modded Novoflex/Fotodiox/Rayqual MD-NEX adapters
Minolta SR-1, SRT-101/303, XD7/XD11, XGM, X700
Bronica SQAi
Ricoh GX100
Minolta majority of all Rokkor SR/AR/MC/MD models made
Sigma 14mm/3.5 for SR mount
Tamron SP 60B 300mm/2.8 (Adaptall)
Samyang T-S 24mm/3.5 (Nikon mount, DIY converted to SR mount)
Schneider-Kreuznach PC-Super-Angulon 28mm/2.8 (SR mount)
Bronica PS 35/40/50/65/80/110/135/150/180/200/250mm |
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visualopsins
Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 10993 Location: California
Expire: 2025-04-11
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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visualopsins wrote:
Can be cured by gentle warming? _________________ ☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮ like attracts like! ☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮
Cameras: Sony ILCE-7RM2, Spotmatics II, F, and ESII, Nikon P4
Lenses:
M42 Asahi Optical Co., Takumar 1:4 f=35mm, 1:2 f=58mm (Sonnar), 1:2.4 f=58mm (Heliar), 1:2.2 f=55mm (Gaussian), 1:2.8 f=105mm (Model I), 1:2.8/105 (Model II), 1:5.6/200, Tele-Takumar 1:5.6/200, 1:6.3/300, Macro-Takumar 1:4/50, Auto-Takumar 1:2.3 f=35, 1:1.8 f=55mm, 1:2.2 f=55mm, Super-TAKUMAR 1:3.5/28 (fat), 1:2/35 (Fat), 1:1.4/50 (8-element), Super-Multi-Coated Fisheye-TAKUMAR 1:4/17, Super-Multi-Coated TAKUMAR 1:4.5/20, 1:3.5/24, 1:3.5/28, 1:2/35, 1:3.5/35, 1:1.8/85, 1:1.9/85 1:2.8/105, 1:3.5/135, 1:2.5/135 (II), 1:4/150, 1:4/200, 1:4/300, 1:4.5/500, Super-Multi-Coated Macro-TAKUMAR 1:4/50, 1:4/100, Super-Multi-Coated Bellows-TAKUMAR 1:4/100, SMC TAKUMAR 1:1.4/50, 1:1.8/55
M42 Carl Zeiss Jena Flektogon 2.4/35
Contax Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* 28-70mm F3.5-4.5
Pentax K-mount SMC PENTAX-A ZOOM 1:3.5 35~105mm, SMC PENTAX ZOOM 1:4 45~125mm
Nikon Micro-NIKKOR-P-C Auto 1:3.5 f=55mm, NIKKOR-P Auto 105mm f/2.5 Pre-AI (Sonnar), Micro-NIKKOR 105mm 1:4 AI, NIKKOR AI-S 35-135mm f/3,5-4,5
Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (51B), Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (151B), SP 500mm f/8 (55BB), SP 70-210mm f/3.5 (19AH)
Vivitar 100mm 1:2.8 MC 1:1 Macro Telephoto (Kiron)
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Zamo
Joined: 08 Feb 2019 Posts: 168
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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Zamo wrote:
RokkorDoctor wrote: |
100% balsam separation. Sometimes this starts like that in the middle of a lens.
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I had a Pentacon 135 2.8 (1st) and had something very similar. I thought it was a tiny bit of oil, and so small it was not worth it to dismantle. Now I see what it really was... |
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jamaeolus
Joined: 19 Mar 2014 Posts: 2965 Location: Eugene
Expire: 2015-08-20
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Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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jamaeolus wrote:
here is another shot with the light reflecting off of it. It might be separation. It seems odd it would progress in such an unusual pattern, at multiple loci. I might take it apart and see if its on the surface or in a cemented component. As mentioned the reason I bought the darn thing was to compare with the same FL of Topcon RE which it bears more than a passing resemblance. I will start a new thread for that.
_________________ photos are moments frozen in time |
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Pancolart
Joined: 04 Feb 2008 Posts: 3705 Location: Slovenia, EU
Expire: 2013-11-18
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Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Pancolart wrote:
visualopsins wrote: |
Can be cured by gentle warming? |
Separation surely. No, don't warm it, there is good chance problem will grow, whereas if left alone it could remain inert for years. _________________ ---------------------------------
The Peculiar Apparatus Of Victorian Steampunk Photography: 100+ Genuine Steampunk Camera Designs https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B92829NS |
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pdccameras
Joined: 23 Aug 2009 Posts: 825 Location: Putnam, CT
Expire: 2014-08-11
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Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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pdccameras wrote:
[quote="jamaeolus"]here is another shot with the light reflecting off of it. It might be separation. It seems odd it would progress in such an unusual pattern, at multiple loci.
For what it's worth, the pattern (dendritic growth) is very common in crystal growth kinetics found in nature, such as when frost forms on your car windshield or when metals solidify from a liquid to a solid state. Simply put, it is the most thermodynamically likely shape to occur in these circumstances. Perhaps this can also occur during the delamination of optical elements as well!
_________________ Canon 5D Mii, Canon 40D, Canon 350D IR, Sony A7 Mii, Sony Alpha-6000, a ton of lenses: AF & MF and too many cameras to count, all formats: 110 - 4x5. |
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Pancolart
Joined: 04 Feb 2008 Posts: 3705 Location: Slovenia, EU
Expire: 2013-11-18
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Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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Pancolart wrote:
And this is how life started . _________________ ---------------------------------
The Peculiar Apparatus Of Victorian Steampunk Photography: 100+ Genuine Steampunk Camera Designs https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B92829NS
Last edited by Pancolart on Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Max78
Joined: 14 Oct 2011 Posts: 80
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Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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Max78 wrote:
pdccameras wrote: |
For what it's worth, the pattern (dendritic growth) is very common in crystal growth kinetics found in nature, such as when frost forms on your car windshield or when metals solidify from a liquid to a solid state. Simply put, it is the most thermodynamically likely shape to occur in these circumstances. Perhaps this can also occur during the delamination of optical elements as well! |
This is definitely separation, I had something similar on the Schneider lens once. Physically it is much closer to Saffman–Taylor instability (interaction between Canada balsam and air): https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Saffman%E2%80%93Taylor_instability
I have seen it during my study at the University in Hele-Shaw cells and have learned the whole theory behind, which is completely forgotten by me now. |
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RokkorDoctor
Joined: 27 Nov 2021 Posts: 1417 Location: Kent, UK
Expire: 2025-05-01
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Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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RokkorDoctor wrote:
Max78 wrote: |
I have seen it during my study at the University in Hele-Shaw cells and have learned the whole theory behind, which is completely forgotten by me now. |
Not completely I would suggest! .
I had never even heard of this. Very interesting. I love learning about these things on this forum! _________________ Mark
SONY A7S, A7RII + dust-sealed modded Novoflex/Fotodiox/Rayqual MD-NEX adapters
Minolta SR-1, SRT-101/303, XD7/XD11, XGM, X700
Bronica SQAi
Ricoh GX100
Minolta majority of all Rokkor SR/AR/MC/MD models made
Sigma 14mm/3.5 for SR mount
Tamron SP 60B 300mm/2.8 (Adaptall)
Samyang T-S 24mm/3.5 (Nikon mount, DIY converted to SR mount)
Schneider-Kreuznach PC-Super-Angulon 28mm/2.8 (SR mount)
Bronica PS 35/40/50/65/80/110/135/150/180/200/250mm |
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pdccameras
Joined: 23 Aug 2009 Posts: 825 Location: Putnam, CT
Expire: 2014-08-11
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Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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pdccameras wrote:
Max78 wrote: |
pdccameras wrote: |
For what it's worth, the pattern (dendritic growth) is very common in crystal growth kinetics found in nature, such as when frost forms on your car windshield or when metals solidify from a liquid to a solid state. Simply put, it is the most thermodynamically likely shape to occur in these circumstances. Perhaps this can also occur during the delamination of optical elements as well! |
This is definitely separation, I had something similar on the Schneider lens once. Physically it is much closer to Saffman–Taylor instability (interaction between Canada balsam and air): https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Saffman%E2%80%93Taylor_instability
I have seen it during my study at the University in Hele-Shaw cells and have learned the whole theory behind, which is completely forgotten by me now. |
Fascinating! So the driving force is a density gradient as opposed to temperature or concentration, but the morphologies are more or less similar to dendritic solidification.
In any case, I too have seen this phenomenon in a few lenses (not all Schneider). In my experience it is often the start of something that can get worse over time, but usually fairly slowly, and when it is the size you have shown in your images, it does not drastically affect IQ, if at all.
P. _________________ Canon 5D Mii, Canon 40D, Canon 350D IR, Sony A7 Mii, Sony Alpha-6000, a ton of lenses: AF & MF and too many cameras to count, all formats: 110 - 4x5. |
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olmajti
Joined: 23 Jul 2017 Posts: 25
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Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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olmajti wrote:
RokkorDoctor wrote: |
Knudsen wrote: |
If you click the image, then click the image that opens in the new tab, it is pretty clear it is not fungus. Looks like 1970's cartoon flowers
Looks to me like something is coming unglued. |
Yes, I could see it enlarged now.
100% balsam separation. Sometimes this starts like that in the middle of a lens.
Here are a couple of other balsam separation examples of similar type I grabbed from the web (quite beautiful some, really):
Markus Keinath - Lens Separation Repair - 4photos.de
http://www.4photos.de/camera-diy/Delamination-Separation-Repair.html
https://9gag.com/gag/aVw6nQP
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Thanks for this info! I bought Carl Zeiss Jena Kipronar 90/1.9 from late 1940's with 3 of these in a front lens. From the link you have posted it looks like reparing this is not that difficult! Need to get my hands on Canadian balsam now |
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