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Lenses corrected for infrared & visible light
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:58 am    Post subject: Lenses corrected for infrared & visible light Reply with quote
Hi folks

After studying the works of Marco Cavina I discovered the Zeiss Sonnar 5.6/250 is corrected upto 1000nm, which makes it ideal for IR shooting.

Does anyone happen to know what other lenses are similarly corrected for the IR part of the spectrum?


PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Interesting topic!

Presumably this long-wavelength correction is over and above the red i/r index seen on a lot of older lenses.
Does this mean that i/r radiation is focussed at the same point as 'normal' light?
I imagine this would be only of use in false-colour imaging, rather than monochrome i/r?


PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Cool, it's not just me that is interested. Smile

Yes, it means upto 1000nm focuses on a single plane.

Yes, it is only of benefit when using red and range filters for false colour.

My reason for asking is that it is tricky to focus on a subject then adjust focus according to the IR mark.


PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Don't forget there are 2 types of the Zeiss Sonnar 250mm f5.6 (as well as being C and CF versions of each). It is the Superachromat version of the 250mm that is corrected up to 1000nm.


PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, I forgot to mention that. Sadly I no longer have my Superachromat 5.6/250, it was a special version for Agiflite aerial cameras and came with a deep orange filter for IR work. Stunning lens, but I never tried itfor IR shooting, unfortunately.


PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Cool, it's not just me that is interested. Smile

Yes, it means upto 1000nm focuses on a single plane.


I think there are several others labeled something like 'Ultra achromat' or 'ultra apochromat' I've not got one myself.
IIRC they were designed to focus UV/visible & NIR in the same place so they may not go quite as far out as 1000nm.

I'm interested in such options but always find any such lenses I see are far more than I'm willing to pay Sad

I expect Klaus ( @kds315* ) will be able to give much more info. He recommended a Nikon enlarging lens for UV work for it's enhanced non visual achromatic performance. Smile


PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: Lenses corrected for infrared & visible light Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Hi folks

After studying the works of Marco Cavina I discovered the Zeiss Sonnar 5.6/250 is corrected upto 1000nm, which makes it ideal for IR shooting.


The Zeiss Sonnar 5.6/250mm is not corrected for IR (believe me - I have one). Look at the image attached - you can clearly see the IR index at about the f11 depth-of-field marking (the image attached is not my own Sonnar, it was taken from an ebay auction).



The Zeiss Sonnar 5.6/250mm Superachromat (commonly referred to as "Zeiss Superachromat") however has no such such IR markings; it is corrected from 400 nm to 1000mm. This lens is a rare and expensive beast. Image taken from an internet auction as well.



iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Does anyone happen to know what other lenses are similarly corrected for the IR part of the spectrum?

I happen to have the Nikkor Ai ED 4.5/300mm (not the ED-IF 4.5/300mm!!), which according to Fritz Meisnitzer - Das grosse Nikon Buch (Laterna Magica 1978) is well corrected from 400 - 1000 nm. Meisnitzer writes:
"Über den gesamten Bereich von 400 - 1000nm ist das sekundäre Spektrum auf ungefähr 10% der sonst üblichen Beträge reduziert."

Another - much more common - lens corrected for IR is the Leica APO-Telyt-R 3.4/180mm. As far as I know also the newer Leica R APO tele lenses are corrected up to 1000 nm (2.8/280, 4/280, 2.8/400), but i'm not completely sure.
In addition my Canon FL 5.6/300mm Fluorite (with two fluorite lenses) has no IR markings, therefore I assume that its correction goes well into the IR.

Other more common Fluorite / ED / ULD / AD lenses i own are not corrected for IR:

* Canon FL/FD 2.8/300mm Fluorite (one fluorite lens, IR marking at the f8 position)
* Canon nFD 2.8/400mm L (two ED lenses, IR marking at the f11 position)
* Nikkor AiS 2.8/180mm ED (ED glass, IR marking at the f16 position)
* Nikkor AiS 4.5/300mm IF-ED (two ED lenses, IR marking at the f11 position)
* Minolta AF 2.8/200mm APO (two AD lenses, IR marking at the f16 position)
* Minolta AF 2.8/300mm APO (two AD lenses)
* Mamiya Sekor C 5.6/300mm (two ED lenses??, IR marking at the f4 position => reasonably well corrected for IR)
* Pentax SMC M* 4/300mm (three ED lenses, IR marking at the f16 position)
* Pentax SMC F* 4.5/300mm ED [IF] (three ED lenses)

Common non-ED 300mm lenses (Canon nFD 4.0 and 5.6/300mm IF, Konica Hexanon AR 4.5/300mm, Minolta MC/MD 4.5, 4.5 IF and 5.6/300mm, Mamiya Sekor CS 4.5/300mm, Yashica ML 5.6/300mm) have their IR index in the f32 ... f45 area. Only exception is the Olympus OM Zuiko 4.5/300mm which has its IR index at about f22.

I hope that gives you some hints where to search ... and where not to search!

S

Last edited by stevemark on Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:31 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kypfer wrote:
Interesting topic!

Does this mean that i/r radiation is focussed at the same point as 'normal' light?

If the lens in fact is corrected for 400-1000nm, then the answer is "yes". My Nikkor ED 4.5/300mm (non-IF!!) and my Canon FL 5.6/300mm Fluorite are such lenses. They have no red IR focusing index, meaning that their visible and IR focus point is the same.

Be aware that there are some ED/AD/ULD lenses with a very steep focusing throw; they usually have only "f32" depth-of-field markings and no red IR marking, either. Nevertheless this does NOT mean that they are corrected for IR (examples are the Minolta AF 2.8/300mm APO or the Pentax-F* 4.5/300mm ED [IF]).


kypfer wrote:
I imagine this would be only of use in false-colour imaging, rather than monochrome i/r?

Not necessarily. Such a correction may also imply that the monochromatic aberrations are well corrected at longer (=IR) wavelengths as well, certainly an advantage for high quality b/w IR photography!

S


PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:
kypfer wrote:
Interesting topic!

Does this mean that i/r radiation is focussed at the same point as 'normal' light?

If the lens in fact is corrected for 400-1000nm, then the answer is "yes". My Nikkor ED 4.5/300mm (non-IF!!) and my Canon FL 5.6/300mm Fluorite are such lenses. They have no red IR focusing index, meaning that their visible and IR focus point is the same.

Be aware that there are some ED/AD/ULD lenses with a very steep focusing throw; they usually have only "f32" depth-of-field markings and no red IR marking, either. Nevertheless this does NOT mean that they are corrected for IR (examples are the Minolta AF 2.8/300mm APO or the Pentax-F* 4.5/300mm ED [IF]).


kypfer wrote:
I imagine this would be only of use in false-colour imaging, rather than monochrome i/r?

Not necessarily. Such a correction may also imply that the monochromatic aberrations are well corrected at longer (=IR) wavelengths as well, certainly an advantage for high quality b/w IR photography!

S


Like 1 small Like 1 small Like 1 small


PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
DConvert wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Cool, it's not just me that is interested. Smile

Yes, it means upto 1000nm focuses on a single plane.


I think there are several others labeled something like 'Ultra achromat' or 'ultra apochromat' I've not got one myself.
IIRC they were designed to focus UV/visible & NIR in the same place so they may not go quite as far out as 1000nm.

I'm interested in such options but always find any such lenses I see are far more than I'm willing to pay Sad

I expect Klaus ( @kds315* ) will be able to give much more info. He recommended a Nikon enlarging lens for UV work for it's enhanced non visual achromatic performance. Smile


Indeed, the Ultra Apochromatic Takumars 85mm + 300mm are corrected from UV to IR (1000nm resp. 850nm). Both rare and quite pricey.


PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mirror lenses typically do well in the Infrared region.


PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:
....

Indeed, the Ultra Apochromatic Takumars 85mm + 300mm are corrected from UV to IR (1000nm resp. 850nm). Both rare and quite pricey.


What does "quite pricey" mean these days ...?

I was shocked to see a 4.5/105mm UV Nikkor go for >3000.-- CHF in a local (Swiss) auction not too long ago, and i suspect the Ultra Achromatic Takumars to be even more expensive ...

S


PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:
kds315* wrote:
....

Indeed, the Ultra Apochromatic Takumars 85mm + 300mm are corrected from UV to IR (1000nm resp. 850nm). Both rare and quite pricey.


What does "quite pricey" mean these days ...?

I was shocked to see a 4.5/105mm UV Nikkor go for >3000.-- CHF in a local (Swiss) auction not too long ago, and i suspect the Ultra Achromatic Takumars to be even more expensive ...

S


Expect to pay at least that, yes, last time I checked. The UV Nikkors were until recently produced under the Rayfact brand, perhaps slightly modified to comply with modern eco norms.

BTW, the Ultra Achromatic Takumar 85 is completely made of fluorite elements, the 300mm has some other elements.

An acquaintance of mine was very happy with the IR performance and lack of focus shift of the Schneider Xenoplan 23mm f/1.4. In the literature Schneider claims good performance from 400 to 1000nm for the Xenoplan machine vision and CCTV lenses. Their small image circle (11mm for most, 22mm for some) may be unpractical for many cameras though.


PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
dickb wrote:

Expect to pay at least that, yes, last time I checked. The UV Nikkors were until recently produced under the Rayfact brand, perhaps slightly modified to comply with modern eco norms.

BTW, the Ultra Achromatic Takumar 85 is completely made of fluorite elements, the 300mm has some other elements.

An acquaintance of mine was very happy with the IR performance and lack of focus shift of the Schneider Xenoplan 23mm f/1.4. In the literature Schneider claims good performance from 400 to 1000nm for the Xenoplan machine vision and CCTV lenses. Their small image circle (11mm for most, 22mm for some) may be unpractical for many cameras though.


Dick, a multispectral, apochromatic lens cannot be designed using just one optical material:
the UAT 85mm is a true quartz-fluorite lens, as is the UV Nikkor 105mm as well as the Zeiss UV-Sonnar 105mm, and all three are actually rather similar - guess teh designers all knew about the oldest one, the UAT 85mm Wink




(c) Marco Cavina


PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
dickb wrote:

Expect to pay at least that, yes, last time I checked.


I'm not into UV photography, just curious about the price of these lenses ... IR is another thing, but you don't need dedicated IR-corrected lenses for nice images ...

CLICK TWICE ON THE IMAGE AND THEN DOWNLOAD IT (RIGHT-CLICK) FOR VIEWING WITH PHOTOSHOP OR A SIMILAR DEDICATED SOFTWARE!!



Usually i don't upload full res images, but this one is quite interesting. Taken with the Minolta AF 1.4/85mm at f5.6 using an IR converted Sony A100 APS-C CCD sensor, the resulting detail resolution on the pixel level is stunning. Look especially at the nearest trees and the rocks on mount Pilatus.

S


PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:
Dick, a multispectral, apochromatic lens cannot be designed using just one optical material: the UAT 85mm is a true quartz-fluorite lens, as is the UV Nikkor 105mm as well as the Zeiss UV-Sonnar 105mm, and all three are actually rather similar - guess teh designers all knew about the oldest one, the UAT 85mm Wink


Indeed, I was incorrect in my wording. The 85/4.5 consists of fluorite and quartz, not just fluorite, and is according to Pentax corrected for 200-1000nm, whereas the 300/5.6 consists of two fluorite elements and 3 glass ones, only corrected for 400-850nm. So your statement

kds315* wrote:
Indeed, the Ultra Apochromatic Takumars 85mm + 300mm are corrected from UV to IR (1000nm resp. 850nm)


is incorrect in that the 300mm lens isn't corrected for UV.
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