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Industar 50
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:04 am    Post subject: Industar 50 Reply with quote
Mentioned by Anil in the Classic Lenses Podcast this week was the Industar 50-2.
I don't have it but instead the Industar 50, which is the same lens I think - only in all metal.
Here are some images taken this morning with it.
All have had PP obviously, and my adapter has a helicoid.
It is a fun little lens and very easy to use. Definitely needs a hood
Tom


#1


#2


#3


#4


#5


#6


PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Very nice! Smile

Like 1 small Like 1 small


PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lovely shots it's obviously as good as the 50-2 Smile
IIRC the 50-2 is in a different mount a M42 SLR, rather than a rangefinder.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nice examples!

The 50mm/F3.5 Industars in all their different variations are basically all copies of the Leitz Elmar 50mm/F3.5 which is a Tessar variant. They all share the same optical formula.
The first one was the Industar-22 (collapsible and rigid) built apprx. from 1945 until 1955 followed by the Industar-50 built apprx. from 1955 until the mid 1970's. All in M39 RF mount. The Industar 50-2 is the optically identical M42 variant.
I have several different ones and they all are decent performers.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
tb_a wrote:
Nice examples!

The 50mm/F3.5 Industars in all their different variations are basically all copies of the Leitz Elmar 50mm/F3.5 which is a Tessar variant. They all share the same optical formula.
The first one was the Industar-22 (collapsible and rigid) built apprx. from 1945 until 1955 followed by the Industar-50 built apprx. from 1955 until the mid 1970's. All in M39 RF mount. The Industar 50-2 is the optically identical M42 variant.
I have several different ones and they all are decent performers.



I don't know if you can comment or not tb_a, but I'm sure I've read that the Leitz is actually a copy (all above board and on licence) of a Taylor Hobson. I have a post-war collapsible FED 3.5 50 and I've read it is actually closer to the Taylor Hobson than it is the Leica.


Apologies in advance if I'm mistaken and have contributed more junk info to the internet.


Nice shots Tom Like 1 small .


PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sciolist wrote:
I don't know if you can comment or not tb_a, but I'm sure I've read that the Leitz is actually a copy (all above board and on licence) of a Taylor Hobson. I have a post-war collapsible FED 3.5 50 and I've read it is actually closer to the Taylor Hobson than it is the Leica.


My understanding is that Taylor Hobson was famous for the production of the Cooke Triplet (3/3 design) which formed more or less the basis of the Tessar (4/3 design). When the Zeiss Tessar copyright expired, Leitz and others adapted this lens design: Elmar, Skopar, Macro-Takumar, Primotar, Xenar, Ektar, etc... All these lenses are Tessar clones like the Industar.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Also bear in mind there are two versions of the non-collapsible Industar 50, the one, designed for rangefinder cameras such as FED or Zorki, in L39 mount and possibly rangefinder coupled, the other in M39 mount that was produced for the Zenit 3m slr which was then further adapted to M42 for use as the 50-2 on the Zenit B etc.

The M39 mount lens looks almost identical to the M42, apart from the thread dimensions and the name, the L39 lens looks as though it has an extension tube fitted when compared to the slr lenses.

I have both an Industar 50 in M39 and an Industar 50-2 in M42, they appear to be optically and mechanically identical, other than the size of the screw-thread. Both are all-metal lenses. To use an M39 lens in an M42 fitting there are thread converter rings available very cheaply. The back-focus for the Zenit 3m and the Zenit B were the same.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
tb_a wrote:
Sciolist wrote:
I don't know if you can comment or not tb_a, but I'm sure I've read that the Leitz is actually a copy (all above board and on licence) of a Taylor Hobson. I have a post-war collapsible FED 3.5 50 and I've read it is actually closer to the Taylor Hobson than it is the Leica.


My understanding is that Taylor Hobson was famous for the production of the Cooke Triplet (3/3 design) which formed more or less the basis of the Tessar (4/3 design). When the Zeiss Tessar copyright expired, Leitz and others adapted this lens design: Elmar, Skopar, Macro-Takumar, Primotar, Xenar, Ektar, etc... All these lenses are Tessar clones like the Industar.



Ah! Okay, thanks. I'd read that the post war FED 50 3.5 was deemed closer to the Taylor Hobson than the Elmar due to the positioning of the diaphragm, but I suppose it's splitting hairs really.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tessar
https://apenasimagens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/zeiss_tessar_scheme.jpg
https://apenasimagens.com/en/tessar-carl-zeiss-jena-en/


http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/50mm_Leica_a_telemetro/00_pag.htm
http://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2015/04/an-interview-with-max-berek.html


The short Z39, and the long L39/LTM I50

http://forum.mflenses.com/industar-50-5cm-red-p-f3-5-leica-screw-l39-sony-nex-m39-t39927.html (first diagram)

The collapsible I50

http://top35mm.com/Industar-50-3-5-50-rangefinder-m39-type-3-Russian-lens

The FED 50 Macro Note that the Iris is in the same position as the Elmar, I don't think it makes any difference to the optical formula, though the bokeh may have slightly different characteristics.


http://fedka.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=349 http://www.sovietcams.com/index.php?1153858839

I22


http://www.sovietcams.com/index.php?804100465

Industar-26M


http://www.sovietcams.com/index.php?-1557141558

The Black I50-2

http://top35mm.com/industar-50-2-50mm-slr-m42-russian-lens

http://jay.fedka.com/index_files/Page444.htm[img][/img]
http://www.martinvarik.com/temp/history_dev/

Industar 10
http://egloos.zum.com/rubicon/v/5456954
http://t.hacquard.free.fr/site1/l_industar_10_en.html

I was trying to gather some Tessar info.... I had to stop here.... It's a never-ending hole of lens stuff.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The 50 Elmar is a nominal 51.6mm FL, the 5cm Tessar is a nominal 52.4mm Fl. The aperture of the Elmar is just behind the front element, the aperture of the Tessar is just forward of the rear element.

The I-22 and I-50 are copies of the Tessar. To use one on a Leica, it is best to adjust the main shim to align more closely with the rangefinder.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've got a silver Industar 50 with a 1957 serial number and I love it. I'm always surprised by how sharp it is. Such a fun lens to shoot with, too.

It's so cute you want to ruffle its hair and buy it a lollipop.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I haven't used mine for ages, which is a shame because they are a joy. The epitome of cheap and cheerful. Wink

And if you need a hood ( which you do ) I made mine from a GU Pot - http://www.chocolatereviews.co.uk/gu-ganache-pots/ - just cut the bottom off the plastic pot, then rub the shiny finish off with Scothbrite and you have a very usable hood which is 1. Cheap, so it doesn't matter if you lose the damn thing. 2. You get to eat chocolate desert until you have enough plastic pots to make spares. Laughing


PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
fiftyonepointsix wrote:
The 50 Elmar is a nominal 51.6mm FL, the 5cm Tessar is a nominal 52.4mm Fl. The aperture of the Elmar is just behind the front element, the aperture of the Tessar is just forward of the rear element.

The I-22 and I-50 are copies of the Tessar. To use one on a Leica, it is best to adjust the main shim to align more closely with the rangefinder.


Elmar M 51.7 mm
https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/50mm_f/2.8_Elmar-M


PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Like 1 small Like 1 small Like 1 small

Excellent Tom!


PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kypfer wrote:
... the other in M39 mount that was produced for the Zenit 3m ...


and for the "Кристалл"

DSC01398 by Mr TTT, on Flickr


PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nice samples! Like 1 small Like 1 small Like 1 small


PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kypfer wrote:
To use an M39 lens in an M42 fitting there are thread converter rings available very cheaply. The back-focus for the Zenit 3m and the Zenit B were the same.


Sorry, but that's simply not correct.

Zenit 3M for M39/Zenit (Z39) lenses is 45.2 mm register distance and Zenit B for M42 lenses is 45.46 mm.

If Z39 lenses are used with a thread converter on M42 camera or adapter this MAY lead therefore to focus problems on infinity setting. I never managed to get really sharp infinity landscape pictures with that combination with my Z39 lenses. However, for shorter distances there shouldn't be any problem.

The better and recommended solution is therefore to use the 16.4 mm distance ring (out of the Russian standard M39 four ring set) and use Z39 lenses on a M39/LTM camera or adapter.

Unfortunately the wrong information about the same register distance is still around on certain pages like e.g. http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Zenit . Wikipedia is already corrected accordingly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flange_focal_distance

Last edited by tb_a on Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:30 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
tb_a wrote:
kypfer wrote:
To use an M39 lens in an M42 fitting there are thread converter rings available very cheaply. The back-focus for the Zenit 3m and the Zenit B were the same.


Sorry, but that's simply not correct.

Zenit 3M for M39/Zenit (Z39) lenses is 45.2 mm register distance and Zenit B for M42 lenses is 45.46 mm.

If Z39 lenses are used with a thread converter on M42 camera or adapter this MAY lead therefore to focus problems on infinity setting. I never managed to get really sharp infinity landscape pictures with that combination with my Z39 lenses. However, for shorter distances there shouldn't be any problem.

The better and recommended solution is therefore to use the 16.4 mm distance ring (out of the Russian standard M39 four ring set) and use Z39 lenses on a M39/LTM camera or adapter.

Unfortunately the wrong information about the same register distance is still around on certain pages like e.g. http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Zenit. Wikipedia is already corrected accordingly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flange_focal_distance


Like 1 small Like 1 small Like 1 small


PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
fiftyonepointsix wrote:
The 50 Elmar is a nominal 51.6mm FL, the 5cm Tessar is a nominal 52.4mm Fl. The aperture of the Elmar is just behind the front element, the aperture of the Tessar is just forward of the rear element.

The I-22 and I-50 are copies of the Tessar. To use one on a Leica, it is best to adjust the main shim to align more closely with the rangefinder.



The infinity lock on my FED 50 3.5 collapsible actually locks the lens past infinity when using a M39 TO FX Adaptor. Now I have a steer on the adjustment required. Thank you Like 1 small .


The K&F adaptor I've used has an inner ring that can turn to allow your lens to centre. I wonder if I can screw it out by 0.8mm? I suppose I'll see.


PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
tb_a wrote:
kypfer wrote:
To use an M39 lens in an M42 fitting there are thread converter rings available very cheaply. The back-focus for the Zenit 3m and the Zenit B were the same.


Sorry, but that's simply not correct.

Zenit 3M for M39/Zenit (Z39) lenses is 45.2 mm register distance and Zenit B for M42 lenses is 45.46 mm.

If Z39 lenses are used with a thread converter on M42 camera or adapter this MAY lead therefore to focus problems on infinity setting. I never managed to get really sharp infinity landscape pictures with that combination with my Z39 lenses. However, for shorter distances there shouldn't be any problem.

The better and recommended solution is therefore to use the 16.4 mm distance ring (out of the Russian standard M39 four ring set) and use Z39 lenses on a M39/LTM camera or adapter.

Unfortunately the wrong information about the same register distance is still around on certain pages like e.g. http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Zenit . Wikipedia is already corrected accordingly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flange_focal_distance


Sorry ... I didn't know any better ... I bought my first Industar 50 new on a Zenit 3m in 1969 and have continued to use a similar lens, with an adaptor ring, for very many years, on a succession of Fujica and Pentax cameras without noticing a problem ... maybe I've not needed to use it to photograph infinity Wink

Probably for the first time ever I've just done a direct comparison between the two lenses in my possession and yes, at full aperture, there is a difference, both focus "beyond" infinity by differing amounts, according to the focus indicator in my Pentax DSLR. As I've probably always relied on the viewfinder to confirm focus, quite possibly with the main subject at near to middle distance and at less than full aperture, I simply would have never noticed any anomaly Smile

We live and learn Smile


PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
A few more from this little lens
T


#1


#2


#3


PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lightshow wrote:
fiftyonepointsix wrote:
The 50 Elmar is a nominal 51.6mm FL, the 5cm Tessar is a nominal 52.4mm Fl. The aperture of the Elmar is just behind the front element, the aperture of the Tessar is just forward of the rear element.

The I-22 and I-50 are copies of the Tessar. To use one on a Leica, it is best to adjust the main shim to align more closely with the rangefinder.


Elmar M 51.7 mm
https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/50mm_f/2.8_Elmar-M


With M-Mount- the mount has a lock which can hold the lens in a precise position with respect to the RF cam of the lens and the Pickup of the camera. You will find a slight index on many of the normal lenses, compared with the Screw mount counterpart.


PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sciolist wrote:
fiftyonepointsix wrote:
The 50 Elmar is a nominal 51.6mm FL, the 5cm Tessar is a nominal 52.4mm Fl. The aperture of the Elmar is just behind the front element, the aperture of the Tessar is just forward of the rear element.

The I-22 and I-50 are copies of the Tessar. To use one on a Leica, it is best to adjust the main shim to align more closely with the rangefinder.



The infinity lock on my FED 50 3.5 collapsible actually locks the lens past infinity when using a M39 TO FX Adaptor. Now I have a steer on the adjustment required. Thank you Like 1 small .


The K&F adaptor I've used has an inner ring that can turn to allow your lens to centre. I wonder if I can screw it out by 0.8mm? I suppose I'll see.


If you have multiple LTM lenses that focus past infinity, you can mod a dedicated adapter to the correct thickness so you don't have to mod multiple lenses, especially if the adapter is not accurate in the first place.

Focusing past infinity is a sign that the lens is too close to the sensor, so if your adapter has an insert that used set screws to hold it in place, shimming it it super easy....


PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lightshow wrote:

......Focusing past infinity is a sign that the lens is too close to the sensor, so if your adapter has an insert that used set screws to hold it in place, shimming it it super easy....


What do you use as shims?


PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lightshow wrote:
Sciolist wrote:
fiftyonepointsix wrote:
The 50 Elmar is a nominal 51.6mm FL, the 5cm Tessar is a nominal 52.4mm Fl. The aperture of the Elmar is just behind the front element, the aperture of the Tessar is just forward of the rear element.

The I-22 and I-50 are copies of the Tessar. To use one on a Leica, it is best to adjust the main shim to align more closely with the rangefinder.



The infinity lock on my FED 50 3.5 collapsible actually locks the lens past infinity when using a M39 TO FX Adaptor. Now I have a steer on the adjustment required. Thank you Like 1 small .


The K&F adaptor I've used has an inner ring that can turn to allow your lens to centre. I wonder if I can screw it out by 0.8mm? I suppose I'll see.




If you have multiple LTM lenses that focus past infinity, you can mod a dedicated adapter to the correct thickness so you don't have to mod multiple lenses, especially if the adapter is not accurate in the first place.

Focusing past infinity is a sign that the lens is too close to the sensor, so if your adapter has an insert that used set screws to hold it in place, shimming it it super easy....



Thanks Lightshow. Yes, that's exactly what I'm hoping - that the K&F adaptor will take a shim. First thing I have to do is find a key to operate the three grub screws that appear to loosen off an inner ring. I thought I had small allen keys, but this requires even smaller.
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