Just loaded my first film on the tank...what a pain

[alaios]

Hi all,
I tried today loading my first film on the reel and I have to admit it was quite tough.

My tank has two reels and it looks like that is much easier to load it on one of the two (actually the second one gave you the feeling that after some time the film gets jammed).
I used this video (see at 9:20) and I was wondering about finger tips since I am touching every single surface of the film.

Right now the film is in the tank still inside the bag and I would try tomorrow to develop it.

Regards
Alex

[Excalibur]

Just needs practice and depends on the dev tank as some you grip the reel and rotate clockwise and anti clockwise and the film winds on.
The worst problem is if the reel is damp or sticky and then it's a nightmare.

[philslizzy]

The problem could be a bearing in the spiral, one is ok but the other isnt. Yes a drop of water sticks everything together.

Re fingers touching the film. You are loading it emulsion-in you will only be touching the base side of the film as its going onto the spiral. That wont do any harm. If you have to touch the emulsion while loading the film onto the spiral you are usually only touching the 'leader' anyway.

For your first effort, I strongly recommend you dev one film only at first - just in case.

Watch the temperature of the rinse water - don't use hot. Cold out of the tap is fine but hot can damage the film.

[PWhite214]

Always wash hands with dish soap before handling film, skin oils affect development. Some recommend thin cotton gloves, but I find them clumsy. When I use a changing bag, I load one or two rolls before my hands start sweating, so put the loaded reels in the tank and put the top on. Wash up again and go back to it.

Phil

[alaios]

Hi,
I think I did everything wrong with this one.. even though I had some practice before.
Once my first film is developed I would try again and discard the problematic reel.

For the gloves I have some plastic disposable ones that do not have any powder.. perhaps I can give them a try.

Regards
Alex

P.S I will post back once my film is developed

[alaios]

First film is developed and thus I write here my experience before I forget it.
As a prewarning for those that have been doing the process for some time this would be rather boring

1. I started by taking my liquids, containers, thermometer and timer at the bathroom

2. My tank gives that each film requires 290ml.. and I had two (actually since yesterday I had problems loading the film I cut it with scissors into two pices and loaded both). That gives me an approximation of 600ml in total!!!

3. My liquids were ilford dd-x, no stop bath liquid, and ilford rapid fixer. According to the manual I found: http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2011427124733149.pdf for my film Agfa APX 100 I had to process for 7 minutes with a ration of 1+4... that was a 120ml from my ilford dd-x and the rest of 380ml with water. I was lucky since my fixer needs the same dillution rate and thus I had exactly the same proportions (less prone to mistakes)

4. I had quite of problem measuring the liquids temperature. I threw my thermoemeter inside my fixer once it was dilluted. That gave me a reading around 19 centigrades.. which I thought is good to go.. Then I did a mistake I picked the thermometer of the fixer to measure my dd-x liquid.. I was not sure if just a drop can destroy completely my developer So I started over.

5. My temperature meterings any way were very innacurate.. My temperature was somethink between 16-19 grads and I am not sure how to improve those metering in the future.

6. I have poored the developer in, just before I have started the timer. I had the feeling that the container is empty or half full. I tested it at the very end and the amount of 600 ml it was okay to cover both rolls.

7. While I was somehow shaking slightly every 30 seconds.. I could hear the reels move a bit and some liquid drops were getting out of the tank.. I would prefer a non-sound experience

8. Then instead of stop bath I rinsed 5 times with water... Making it empty and then back full.. pouring water out and repeating this process 5 times.

9. My fixer's manual says that 2-5 minutes are okay. Since my timer was set to 7 minutes I have left the timer to that value and started it. I have been also shaking this from time to time up to 7 minutes.

10. I have poured out and then rinsed 3 times. and left the water tap open to low flow-intensity though and went for lunch. Once I returned I rinsed also 5 more times. To be honest I do not want to leave water running (what a waster of water ). So any suggestion here on how to reduce water consumed is more than welcome.

11. My last rinse was with sterilized water ... (this think we use for the iron) to make sure I will have no water drops on my film surface... Keep using it in the future is not option since I have spent 600ml out of the 2liter bottle and these thinks are heavy to carry (I have no car).. I guess there is a lighter alternative for reducing water marks (germany s water is hard)

12. I had also problems hanging the film... So you will see my "patent" soon.... To be honest it looks like I would need something for that. My screenshot would appear soon on how it is drying (digital cameras battery is charging)

13. I have disposed both my developer and my fixer to simplify the process. It does not look though I can store those... according to the dd-x manual WORKING SOLUTION LIFE
ILFOTEC DD-X, ILFOTEC LC29 and ILFOSOL S
working strength solutions should not be kept for
more than 24 hours. Make up fresh developer
each time it is needed and discard it after the
processing session.

14. one of the two liquids smells funny.. and I smell funny too now.. I also think that they are a bit acidy since I can feel my hands dry now...

that is all for now.. I will post back one shot as I have promised

[Excalibur]

The fixer temp is not important and only has to be very roughly near dev temp... but not that far out e.g. ice cold as using after dev at 20C and it could cause reticulation.

[miran]

Sounds exactly like how I was when I first tried. Many films later this is my conslusion: you're overcomplicating!

Here's the procedure I arrived at after much experimentation:

1. Putting film on the reel gets a tiny little bit easier with practice. Make sure to leave the leader out. Cut the leader off and round the corners to make the film go on the reel smoothly.

2. Temperature doesn't matter that much as long as it's within a few degrees of 20°C (assuming black and white). I use a precise thermometer to make sure my water is at least roughly around 20°C. How I do that depends on the season. In summer the tap water can be around 25° or more. In this case I cool it down with ice blocks from the freezer. In winter tap water is usually around 10-15°. In this case I mix it with hot water until it's about right. I do this in a large plastic bowl that holds about 5l. I use this water to mix all my liquids except in rare cases when the tap water is exactly 20°C.

3. I use Adonal (Rodinal) exclusively. Works well especially with more modern films and gives more grainy results with the classic stuff but always just works. And it never seems to run out (still on my first bottle and it's still almost full after a few years). You need only around 4ml for a roll of 135 or 7ml for two rolls. I always make more developer than the minimum stated on the tank. 400ml for a single roll, full tank for two.

4. I pour developer in, turn the tank around a few times and let it stand for about an hour. Maybe a couple more turns at 30min if I'm not doing something else somewhere else at the time. If the room temperature is much higher than 20° (in summer) I put the tank in the big bowl of cold water so it doesn't heat up much during development.

5. After an hour the developer goes in the drain. No stop is needed but one tank of plain water is ok too. Fixer goes in for about 4 or 5 minutes with a couple turns each minute. Temperature is not very important.

6. I rinse with fresh tap water 3 times. First time 5 turns of the tank, second round 10 turns, third round 20 turns. In the last round I add a drop of wetting agent (the stuff they put in detergent t make foam). I wash the bubbles off under a bit of running water.

7. Shake as much water off the reel, take film out and hang to dry in a quiet and clean place overnight.

Photos come out perfect every time.

[philslizzy]

[alaios]

Hi,
I am just quoting my self to prompt you if possible get replies to the points I still need some help and with bold I am adding my new question


4. I had quite of problem measuring the liquids temperature. I threw my thermoemeter inside my fixer once it was dilluted. That gave me a reading around 19 centigrades.. which I thought is good to go.. Then I did a mistake I picked the thermometer of the fixer to measure my dd-x liquid.. I was not sure if just a drop can destroy completely my developer So I started over.

Should I have kept my developer or it was correct fully discarding it?


7. While I was somehow shaking slightly every 30 seconds.. I could hear the reels move a bit and some liquid drops were getting out of the tank.. I would prefer a non-sound experience
Is this normal? Should I turn it upside down too?

9. My fixer's manual says that 2-5 minutes are okay. Since my timer was set to 7 minutes I have left the timer to that value and started it. I have been also shaking this from time to time up to 7 minutes.
I guess nothing to worry if I overdo it

10. I have poured out and then rinsed 3 times. and left the water tap open to low flow-intensity though and went for lunch. Once I returned I rinsed also 5 more times. To be honest I do not want to leave water running (what a waster of water ). So any suggestion here on how to reduce water consumed is more than welcome.
tips on saving water and at the same time having a very good rinse?

11. My last rinse was with sterilized water ... (this think we use for the iron) to make sure I will have no water drops on my film surface... Keep using it in the future is not option since I have spent 600ml out of the 2liter bottle and these thinks are heavy to carry (I have no car).. I guess there is a lighter alternative for reducing water marks (germany s water is hard)
I olny got the idea of detergent (normal soapy stuff of the kitchen sink). Is that enough?



13. I have disposed both my developer and my fixer to simplify the process. It does not look though I can store those... according to the dd-x manual WORKING SOLUTION LIFE
ILFOTEC DD-X, ILFOTEC LC29 and ILFOSOL S
working strength solutions should not be kept for
more than 24 hours. Make up fresh developer
each time it is needed and discard it after the
processing session.
Is it possible to reuse some of those? If I can not reuse my dd-x then I need a new developer. My 1 liter developer can only give few films developed which makes it very expensive process

14. one of the two liquids smells funny.. and I smell funny too now.. I also think that they are a bit acidy since I can feel my hands dry now...
any comment here

15. AFter hanging the film for 2-3 hours I have put it to my negative slides. At night when I was trying to scan them I could not easily take them of the negative plastic holder..
Have I done something wrong?

[philslizzy]

[alaios]

Hi,
thanks for the answers.

Archival quality is needed so I need to have a good rinse... although I hoped that there might me some magical chemical that can reduce the number of water I have to waste

We have filter to our drinking water so thanks for the tip. I can just use that one for the final rinse, just before I added some kitchen soap.

I plan today to develop two films, since I have one reel I would repeat the process twice. I am thinking to put my developer in a coke bottle and reuse it by adding 10% of time as you said. Since though ilford in the manual says that dd-x working solution (I guess working solution is what you distill with water) should not be kept over 24 hours I am not gonna buy this liquid anymore.. Too expensive.. since it can only develop 10-15 film rolls....

Regarding fixer I am not sure if I can reuse it though.


For temperature today I plan to use the boiler and sink all my liquids in the same temperature and leave them there for some time.

I am posting tonight my first scanned negatives to get more feedback

REgards
Alex

[miran]

[philslizzy]

I think whats here is all good advice - dont complicate things for yourself.

[alaios]

thanks guys! I think I feel very confident with the process. I mostly complain about my dd-x price and not being able to reuse it... Developing though many rolls in a row would be an option.. Current limitation though seems to my scanning experience for which I complain here
http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic,p,1416884.html#1416884

Regards
Alex

[alaios]

Hi,
this is my first roll developed. AS you can see it has suffered a lot when I was trying to load it to the reel.... and some dots are coming from my epson flatbed scanner.

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Regards
Alex

[philslizzy]

Some are better than others. The scanner glass looks as if it is scratched. A similar shape mark appears on at least two negatives. Also it looks as if the negative has not been allowed to dry completely before handling. I hang my negs over the bath knowing its not going to be used until at least tomorrow. Bathrooms are usually the least dusty places, specially if you have a shower as airborne moisture will drop any floating dust. 24 hours drying is best.

[dan_]

To come back to the title of the topic, if loading the film in the tank is a pain you could use a Rodinax Daylight Developing Tank:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2060778.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xrodinax&_nkw=rodinax&_sacat=0
With a little patience you can find one for ~50 Euro (that's what I payed for mine on ebay 2 years ago).

With it all the loading/developing process can be done, very convenient, in daylight and it uses a very little quantity of chemicals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqu0207cq70
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQdNdm9gGdc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bzSKWn9IJg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqeTp9wU928

[PWhite214]

Ilford has PDF Data Sheets online

Fixer: http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2006130218312091.pdf

Quoted from above document:

Washing films

When ILFORD RAPID FIXER has been used for
spiral tank processing the following method of
washing is recommended. This method of washing
is faster, uses less water yet still gives negatives
suitable for long term storage.
After fixing, fill the spiral tank with water at the
same temperature, +/-5ºC (9ºF), as the processing
solutions and invert it five times. Drain the water
away and refill. Invert the tank ten times. Once
more drain the water away and refill. Finally,
invert the tank twenty times and drain the water
away.

Temperature control

I put my working solution bottles into a deep pan filled with water, add ice as necessary before processing. I try to start the process at 68 Deg F. I don't mind if my developer is one or two degrees off. I 'stand develop' with HC-110 for 1 hour, dilution 100:1. After filling the tank and tapping to dislodge any air bubbles, no more agitation is required. The sealed tank and stock fixer stay in the pan through the develop process.



Drying

I dry the negatives in the bathroom. Run the hot shower for a few minutes. The water vapor cleans out the airborne dust. After the vapor is settled, I hand the film strips over the bathtub. Two to three hours produces dry negatives.

Note, I am planning a heated, filtered air drying cabinet. Hopefully I'll build it soon.

Phil

[philslizzy]

Something Phil says in the above post begs me to ask this question. Good advice by the way.

Alex, did you keep the film on the spiral while washing it?

[alaios]

[PWhite214]

The effects of insufficient washing may not be apparent for a long time.

See Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washing_%28photography%29

I remember photographers on a deadline, doing a quick wash, dry and print time sensitive negatives, then re-spooling the film for archival washing.

Phil

[philslizzy]

They look washed fine, I was wondering about the damage to the negs. I had wondered if you'd taken the film off the spirals and washed it loose. Thats why I asked..

The temperature of the wash water is fine and perfectly normal. Using hot water accidentally can cause the emulsion to soften then cold water makes it harden causing wrinkles on the emulsion (reticulation). Your negs do not exhibit this so you are doing it well. I think the processing you did and the wash is fine. Its all the stuff afterwards

There is a big combination of things messing them up. Possible static electricity flashes, fingerprints on the emulsion, neg damage because its not dry enough, drying in a dusty environment and dust and scratches on the scanner. Any one of which is bad.

I'm not sure why you had problems loading the tank, I've developed 4 or 5 films in it with no problem - apart from the dribbles. In almost all cases when I load a 36 exp film the last dozen centimetres can be a bugger to put on the spiral.

[alaios]

One of the reels was blocking the film to get inside.. I have spent so much time pushing it in....After some time my excessive pushing did not have results. I used scissors to cut it and then feed it on the second reel that was .. piece of cake... I will dispose the damaged reel so I can not get confused.

I order my new film scanner that will arrive, I hope, on Saturday... First I am gonna solve the scanning process with something I like. The one that I just bought it can be returned back within 15 days... Once I have the workflow I like I will start processing my negatives.

I am also ordering the olympurs 35 sp as my jacket pocket camera. I am thinking for iso 800 all day film, as I am spending quite some time inside the train.

That is all for now
Alex