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uddhava
Joined: 22 Aug 2012 Posts: 3072 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2021-06-21
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Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:53 pm Post subject: shinano pigeon 5b |
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uddhava wrote:
Has anyone ever seen one of these?
It is from a local seller.
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philslizzy
Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 4744 Location: Cheshire, England
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Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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philslizzy wrote:
I've never seen this one but it looks like a later version of the 'V', coupled rangefinder 35mm camera. The shape and position of the rangefinder (and the model number) would suggest to me that it is probably 1958-1960. Quite late for a 35mm folder.
Older Pigeons I have seen seem to be of good quality, like German cameras of the era. Solid, well made and usually working.
Uncommon, it isn't featured in Mckeowns (or at least my 12th edition). It values the V it at 4-5 times the older versions, probably indicative of its rarity and collectability. _________________ Hero in the 'messin-with-cameras-for-the-hell-of-it department'. Official. |
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uddhava
Joined: 22 Aug 2012 Posts: 3072 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2021-06-21
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Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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uddhava wrote:
philslizzy wrote: |
I've never seen this one but it looks like a later version of the 'V', coupled rangefinder 35mm camera. The shape and position of the rangefinder (and the model number) would suggest to me that it is probably 1958-1960. Quite late for a 35mm folder.
Older Pigeons I have seen seem to be of good quality, like German cameras of the era. Solid, well made and usually working.
Uncommon, it isn't featured in Mckeowns (or at least my 12th edition). It values the V it at 4-5 times the older versions, probably indicative of its rarity and collectability. |
Interesting. I find some interesting cameras being sold locally. Thought some of the members here might like to see it.
Here are a couple more pictures.
Eventually I would like to get a 6x6 camera with a coupled rangefinder. This camera is 35mm though. |
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philslizzy
Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 4744 Location: Cheshire, England
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Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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philslizzy wrote:
uddhava wrote: |
Eventually I would like to get a 6x6 camera with a coupled rangefinder. This camera is 35mm though. |
Something like this beauty...?
although the r/f isn't coupled its a lovely camera to use _________________ Hero in the 'messin-with-cameras-for-the-hell-of-it department'. Official. |
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uddhava
Joined: 22 Aug 2012 Posts: 3072 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2021-06-21
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Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:00 am Post subject: |
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uddhava wrote:
That's a nice looking camera!
I didn't know that such nice cameras were made in that style (with the lens that
pulls out) and I was thinking more of a folding camera. Also maybe without the rangefinder
coupled, but just built into the camera like yours. Are you able to get accurate focus that
with that type? |
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philslizzy
Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 4744 Location: Cheshire, England
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:11 am Post subject: |
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philslizzy wrote:
It's called a 'tube camera' The tube was designed for two reasons, one to give a more modern appearance and two to avoid any problems that bellows have - leaks, splitting etc.
All tube cameras have a mechanism that holds the lens at exactly the right position, either by a 'pull out and turn' method or in this case, spring loaded. And the MIOM Photax unscrewed to the end of its thread.
I know of no tube cameras with rangefinder coupling due to the construction. This one uses a knob on the right as you look at it, you turn the knob and focus the rangefinder, read off the distance and set the focus on the lens. the one in the photo is focused at 5 metres. All the models that I have have front cell focus.
This is older but nicer than its later brethren the Braun Paxina 29 and 35 models.
I love tube cameras and have several of them. A common problem with this type of camera is the shutter actuator. If it is built-in such as this model, there has to be a pretty complicated mechanism which often goes wrong - as it did in this case. The double exposure lock was needlessly complicated as was the shutter release - six mechanical pieces and two springs just to keep the rangefinder symmetrical. German over engineering. I have modified the inside now to make it simpler. The double exposure mechanism was stripped out - eight pieces including two springs - but a piece had sheared off it. I am making a new shutter release.
Cheaper ones use the actual shutter release on the shutter its self.
You can get a pretty good one for less than £20 with postage on ebay. My favourites are the Brauns but I have Goldammer, Agfa and Vredeborch models too.
But your camera is special, there's not much about it on the net and believe me I've tried and McKeowns don't even mention it. It is an extremely rare beast, get it working and use it!! _________________ Hero in the 'messin-with-cameras-for-the-hell-of-it department'. Official. |
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uddhava
Joined: 22 Aug 2012 Posts: 3072 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2021-06-21
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:18 am Post subject: |
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uddhava wrote:
philslizzy wrote: |
But your camera is special, there's not much about it on the net and believe me I've tried and McKeowns don't even mention it. It is an extremely rare beast, get it working and use it!! |
Actually, I don't own this camera, I just saw it for sale. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "from" or
mentioned advertised. I think I am hearing too much Hungarian English.
Unfortunately the camera is beyond my budget which is too bad because it is quite rare it.
I might be interested in a tube camera though. They are fairly common here and not very expensive.
None are as nice as the one you have though.
Right now I am shooting film with this simple camera, an Akarette, which I bought because I liked the way it looked and to try out the lens. Of course it was inexpensive.
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luisalegria
Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 6602 Location: San Francisco, USA
Expire: 2018-01-18
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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luisalegria wrote:
The Shinano you have there is quite uncommon I think.
Interesting coupled rangefinder to a front cell focus lens, and also there are few 35mm folders like this from Japan.
Looks like they wanted a direct competitor for the Kodak Retinas and similar, but the market was moving away from that style by the time this came out.
There are only a few cameras like that - coupled rangefinder with front cell focus - because the mechanism is inconvenient.
The most common of that sort is the infamous Kodak 35 with rangefinder, where the coupling mechanism is absurdly clumsy.
There is also a fairly common Iloca model that is better designed. _________________ I like Pentax DSLR's, Exaktas, M42 bodies of all kinds, strange and cheap Japanese lenses, and am dabbling in medium format/Speed Graphic work. |
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philslizzy
Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 4744 Location: Cheshire, England
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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philslizzy wrote:
The Akarette is nice, I have two of them - but they are Akarelles, The Akarette has a knob wind and the Akarelle, a lever wind. This is the 1953 (+/-2 years) version with the viewfinder selector. The 1957 version (only Akarelle) has a bright line VF. My '57 model is not working and I think never will but the 1953 version like this one works perfectly. Both models go relatively cheaply £20 to £25 and are always advertise on ebay. Go for that if you haven't bought it.
a couple of pix taken on the Akarelle Mk1 (1953) AGFA Vista 200. supermarket scan
_________________ Hero in the 'messin-with-cameras-for-the-hell-of-it department'. Official. |
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luisalegria
Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 6602 Location: San Francisco, USA
Expire: 2018-01-18
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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luisalegria wrote:
That Shinano 5B seems to be rare, rare, rare
Camerapedia says
"No surviving example of the Pigeon 35 5B is known yet" _________________ I like Pentax DSLR's, Exaktas, M42 bodies of all kinds, strange and cheap Japanese lenses, and am dabbling in medium format/Speed Graphic work. |
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philslizzy
Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 4744 Location: Cheshire, England
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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philslizzy wrote:
luisalegria wrote: |
...
Interesting coupled rangefinder to a front cell focus lens, |
Un-coupled. Coupled is difficult because of the tube. I agree, front cell focus coupled rangefinders are very clumsy. But none in 120. _________________ Hero in the 'messin-with-cameras-for-the-hell-of-it department'. Official. |
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philslizzy
Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 4744 Location: Cheshire, England
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:04 am Post subject: |
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philslizzy wrote:
luisalegria wrote: |
That Shinano 5B seems to be rare, rare, rare
Camerapedia says "No surviving example of the Pigeon 35 5B is known yet" |
Quite exciting seeing a rarity like this then but rare, rare, rare doesn't always mean expensive (although in this case it is) I have a Luxa Six, one of less than a thousand made in 1953 (I think). Photos on google show only 3 or 4 cameras and I have one of them. Price? Less than £30. Wolf was a manufacturer of Braun cameras and almost certainly made the Gloria pictured above.
McKeowns lists thousands of cameras but 5 or 6 of my 60 or so are not even mentioned rare or otherwise in the 12th edition.
Uddhava, it may be worth sending the publisher of 'McKeowns price guide to antique cameras' a photo of this camera. And to camerapedia. _________________ Hero in the 'messin-with-cameras-for-the-hell-of-it department'. Official. |
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luisalegria
Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 6602 Location: San Francisco, USA
Expire: 2018-01-18
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:06 am Post subject: |
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luisalegria wrote:
This Shinano seems to have a coupled rangefinder on its front cell focus lens.
And neatly done too. Not a monster like the Kodak 35.
Who knows if it works though.
I can say the Kodak 35 rangefinder does work, though all of them will need adjustment, they are really easy to work on. _________________ I like Pentax DSLR's, Exaktas, M42 bodies of all kinds, strange and cheap Japanese lenses, and am dabbling in medium format/Speed Graphic work. |
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uddhava
Joined: 22 Aug 2012 Posts: 3072 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2021-06-21
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:12 am Post subject: |
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uddhava wrote:
luisalegria wrote: |
This Shinano seems to have a coupled rangefinder on its front cell focus lens.
And neatly done too. Not a monster like the Kodak 35.
Who knows if it works though.
I can say the Kodak 35 rangefinder does work, though all of them will need adjustment, they are really easy to work on. |
According to the seller the rangefinder and the shutter are both working. The camera is selling for under $100.
If either of you are interested I can inquire further. You have really got my curiosity up by all this mention of how rare it is.
philslizzy wrote: |
The Akarette is nice, I have two of them - but they are Akarelles, The Akarette has a knob wind and the Akarelle, a lever wind. This is the 1953 (+/-2 years) version with the viewfinder selector. The 1957 version (only Akarelle) has a bright line VF. My '57 model is not working and I think never will but the 1953 version like this one works perfectly. Both models go relatively cheaply £20 to £25 and are always advertise on ebay. Go for that if you haven't bought it. |
I have it. I bought it for about $10 USA. I have some film in it, now about 2/3 finished. I am pacing off the distance to my subjects though. Your shots are nice. How do you calculate the distance for focusing? Do you use an old rangefinder attachment?
BTW I found a tube camera going for a reasonable price. It is a Alsaphot Norlin D'Assas. Have you ever heard of
that one or have any experience? I see them for sale on ebay also. |
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luisalegria
Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 6602 Location: San Francisco, USA
Expire: 2018-01-18
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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luisalegria wrote:
Rangefinding with such a camera is best done with the eyes and judgement.
You can get an add-on rangefinder but I have never had much advantage from them.
We actually had distance measurement as a exercise in school back in my day.
i.e., we learned to guess distances up to 1/2 kilometer. I don't know if that's done anymore.
Guessing distance -
1m - length of a meter stick. Carry around a meter stick in your house and poke it at objects and get a feel for how things look 1 meter away.
2m - length of a tall man - Assume an invisible basketball player and imagine he is lying flat in front of you, in the direction you are measuring.
3m - length of a horse,
4m - length of a car,
etc.
This is useful only if you are using fairly small apertures, for more DOF. No method with anything but a coupled rangefinder will work well if you are trying to do large apertures at close range. _________________ I like Pentax DSLR's, Exaktas, M42 bodies of all kinds, strange and cheap Japanese lenses, and am dabbling in medium format/Speed Graphic work. |
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