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CuriousOne
Joined: 31 Dec 2013 Posts: 669 Location: Home
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Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:35 pm Post subject: Is it possible to get 20-40:1 macro @ home? |
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CuriousOne wrote:
I need large magnified macro, so far I've tried:
Cheap +1+2+3 etc lens in front of telephoto lens. Works, but only kind of, also, gives high CA.
Wide angle lens mounted on bellows, better, but still not enough magnification.
Wide angle lens mounted on bellows+reverse mounted lens in front of it, even beter, but I want more
Basically, my goal is, to make small (0.2x0.2mm) objects to appear as large as possible on cropped sensor, and ideally, fill up the frame.
I have various microscope parts, which I can adopt, but so far no luck, they require very close distance to objects to be filmed. _________________ I have nothing to compensate with lens |
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Alex H
Joined: 25 Dec 2011 Posts: 344
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Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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Alex H wrote:
Look for LWD (long working distance) microscope objectives. Some have "Ultra Long" and "Super Long" designations in their names. |
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marcusBMG
Joined: 07 Dec 2012 Posts: 1315 Location: Conwy N Wales
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Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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marcusBMG wrote:
This guy is doing a good job putting together a lot of info, something may be pertinent to your quest.
http://extreme-macro.co.uk/
addendum Steen Bruun has some interesting stuff using plossl eyepieces
http://www.gyes.eu/photo/photostart.htm _________________ pentax ME super (retired)
Pentax K3-ii; pentax K-S2; Samsung NX 20; Lumix G1 + adapters;
Adaptall collection (proliferating!) inc 200-500mm 31A, 300mm f2.8, 400mm f4.
Primes: takumar 55mm; smc 28mm, 50mm; kino/komine 28mm f2's, helios 58mm, Tamron Nestar 400mm, novoflex 400mm, Vivitar 135mm close focus, 105mm macro; Jupiter 11A; CZJ 135mm.
A classic zoom or two: VS1 (komine), Kiron Zoomlock... |
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kds315*
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 16634 Location: Weinheim, Germany
Expire: 2021-03-09
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Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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kds315* wrote:
This is about the area where cheap michrofiche reader lenses are optimised for (24x, 48x etc).
Controlling vibrations is key at those mags, so using a Xenon flash lighting system is advisable. _________________ Klaus - Admin
"S'il vient a point, me souviendra" [Thomas Bohier (1460-1523)]
http://www.macrolenses.de for macro and special lens info
http://www.pbase.com/kds315/uv_photos for UV Images and lens/filter info
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/albums my albums using various lenses
http://photographyoftheinvisibleworld.blogspot.com/ my UV BLOG
http://www.travelmeetsfood.com/blog Food + Travel BLOG
https://galeriafotografia.com Architecture + Drone photography
Currently most FAV lens(es):
X80QF f3.2/80mm
Hypergon f11/26mm
ELCAN UV f5.6/52mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f4/60mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f2/62mm
Lomo Уфар-12 f2.5/41mm
Lomo Зуфар-2 f4.0/350mm
Lomo ZIKAR-1A f1.2/100mm
Nikon UV Nikkor f4.5/105mm
Zeiss UV-Sonnar f4.3/105mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f1.8/45mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f4.1/94mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f2.8/100mm
Steinheil Quarzobjektiv f1.8/50mm
Pentax Quartz Takumar f3.5/85mm
Carl Zeiss Jena UV-Objektiv f4/60mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha II f1.1/90mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha I f2.8/200mm
COASTAL OPTICS f4/60mm UV-VIS-IR Apo
COASTAL OPTICS f4.5/105mm UV-Micro-Apo
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f4.5/85mm
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f5.6/300mm
Rodenstock UV-Rodagon f5.6/60mm + 105mm + 150mm
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DahakaNishoba
Joined: 07 May 2013 Posts: 27 Location: Rome ITALY
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Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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DahakaNishoba wrote:
photomacrography.net
browse forums there |
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Ray Parkhurst
Joined: 04 Jul 2011 Posts: 504 Location: Santa Clara, CA, USA
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Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:55 am Post subject: |
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Ray Parkhurst wrote:
Best way to do this is with a microscope objective, but short working distance is always a problem. The LWD objectives will get you 20mm of WD at 20x, and you can get a little more if you use a measurement objective.
Problem with any system working at these magnifications is extremely shallow DOF. I mean REALLY SHALLOW. You will need a stand capable of adjustment accuracy of a couple microns. It can't be done handheld. |
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CuriousOne
Joined: 31 Dec 2013 Posts: 669 Location: Home
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Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:13 am Post subject: |
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CuriousOne wrote:
DOF and lightning is not a problem, since I need this setup to investigate fungus inside lens. Distance to object is most important. _________________ I have nothing to compensate with lens |
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Ray Parkhurst
Joined: 04 Jul 2011 Posts: 504 Location: Santa Clara, CA, USA
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Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:47 am Post subject: |
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Ray Parkhurst wrote:
Best lenses for this kind of inspection work are the Nikon MeasureScope objectives. If you are looking for 20x, I'd suggest using a 10x MM objective (working distance is 49.5mm) and a 2x teleconverter. This will give you 20x but will also result in a reasonable NA for the work you're doing. It's hard to get that kind of working distance any other way...Ray |
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ZoneV
Joined: 09 Nov 2009 Posts: 1632 Location: Germany
Expire: 2011-12-02
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Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:20 am Post subject: |
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ZoneV wrote:
CuriousOne wrote: |
DOF and lightning is not a problem, since I need this setup to investigate fungus inside lens. Distance to object is most important. |
Is it not more easy to disassemble the lens?
So you get lower working distances, ans less abberations due to the glass between. Even flat glass would be a problem with such high magnifications - most mnicroscope lenses have stated for which thickness of cover glass they are constructed, some for no cover glass, some with variable cover glass thickness, but I know none for 10mm or more glass thickness.
Many lenses are not flat, so stitching would be needed to get a fair level of sharpness for documentation.
Here a fungus image I made - stitched, on a single lens:
Full size on my lens fungus basics page. _________________ Camera modification, repair and DIY - some links to look through: http://www.4photos.de/camera-diy/index-en.html
I AM A LENS NERD!
Epis, Elmaron, Emerald, Ernostar, Helioplan and Heidosmat.
Epiotar, Kameraobjektiv, Anastigmat, Epis, Meganast, Magnagon, Quinar, Culmigon, Novotrinast, Novflexar, Colorplan, Sekor, Kinon, Talon, Telemegor, Xenon, Xenar, Ultra, Ultra Star. Tessar, Janar, Visionar, Kiptar, Kipronar and Rotelar.
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duckrider
Joined: 11 Dec 2013 Posts: 437 Location: Germany
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Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:24 am Post subject: |
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duckrider wrote:
CuriousOne wrote: |
to investigate fungus inside lens. Distance to object is most important. |
as far as I can see, fungus only is in deeper layers of the lens, so You might come in trouble with the working distance.
Is the targeted magnification really necessary? _________________ T*homas
(from the origin land of Zeiss, an obligation )
Zeiss ZF 3.5/18, 2.8/25, 2.0/35, 2/50macro, 1.4/50, 1.4/85, 2/100macro
Nikon Df, F2AS, F2A, F3/T, FM
ALPA 11Si, Angulon 2,8/35 ; Xenar 1,9/50 ; Tele-Tessar 4/200
Leica R3 SAFARI Safari Lenses 2.8/28 ; 2/50 ; 4/180
Rolleiflex SL 350 , Zeiss 2,8/16 ; 4/18 ; 2,8/25 ; 2,8/35 ; 1,4/35 ; 1,8/50 ; 2,8/85 ; 1,4/85 ; 4/135 ; 4/200
Leica M9-P, Leica M4-2, Tri-Elmar "Wate", Distagon 2,8/21, Biogon 2,8/28, Biogon 2/35, Planar 2/50, Tessar 4/85, M-Elmar 50mm, Summicron 90
Sony alpha 7r & adapters for all lenses above |
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philslizzy
Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 4744 Location: Cheshire, England
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Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:24 am Post subject: |
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philslizzy wrote:
I made a microscope, take a look and see if you can adapt any of my ideas.
http://forum.mflenses.com/nex-and-home-made-microscope-t57144,highlight,%2Bmade+%2Bmicroscope.html _________________ Hero in the 'messin-with-cameras-for-the-hell-of-it department'. Official. |
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kds315*
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 16634 Location: Weinheim, Germany
Expire: 2021-03-09
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Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:04 am Post subject: |
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kds315* wrote:
Ray Parkhurst wrote: |
Best lenses for this kind of inspection work are the Nikon MeasureScope objectives. If you are looking for 20x, I'd suggest using a 10x MM objective (working distance is 49.5mm) and a 2x teleconverter. This will give you 20x but will also result in a reasonable NA for the work you're doing. It's hard to get that kind of working distance any other way...Ray |
Yep, a very clever idea! here is a 5x one, so you know how it looks like: http://www.macrolenses.de/ml_detail.php?ObjektiveNr=355
_________________ Klaus - Admin
"S'il vient a point, me souviendra" [Thomas Bohier (1460-1523)]
http://www.macrolenses.de for macro and special lens info
http://www.pbase.com/kds315/uv_photos for UV Images and lens/filter info
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/albums my albums using various lenses
http://photographyoftheinvisibleworld.blogspot.com/ my UV BLOG
http://www.travelmeetsfood.com/blog Food + Travel BLOG
https://galeriafotografia.com Architecture + Drone photography
Currently most FAV lens(es):
X80QF f3.2/80mm
Hypergon f11/26mm
ELCAN UV f5.6/52mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f4/60mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f2/62mm
Lomo Уфар-12 f2.5/41mm
Lomo Зуфар-2 f4.0/350mm
Lomo ZIKAR-1A f1.2/100mm
Nikon UV Nikkor f4.5/105mm
Zeiss UV-Sonnar f4.3/105mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f1.8/45mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f4.1/94mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f2.8/100mm
Steinheil Quarzobjektiv f1.8/50mm
Pentax Quartz Takumar f3.5/85mm
Carl Zeiss Jena UV-Objektiv f4/60mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha II f1.1/90mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha I f2.8/200mm
COASTAL OPTICS f4/60mm UV-VIS-IR Apo
COASTAL OPTICS f4.5/105mm UV-Micro-Apo
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f4.5/85mm
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f5.6/300mm
Rodenstock UV-Rodagon f5.6/60mm + 105mm + 150mm
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sceptic
Joined: 01 Jun 2013 Posts: 255
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Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:39 am Post subject: |
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sceptic wrote:
Swedish Nature Photographer of the year 2012, John Hallmen, has a great blog in Swedish about macro photography www.makrofokus.se. Here is a Google translated section on various options for getting in (really) close:
http://translate.google.se/translate?hl=sv&sl=sv&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmakrofokus.se%2Fblogg%2F2011%2F12%2F29%2Falternativa-makroobjektiv.html&sandbox=1 _________________ Sony A7R and wildly varying flora of lenses |
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CuriousOne
Joined: 31 Dec 2013 Posts: 669 Location: Home
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Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:50 am Post subject: |
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CuriousOne wrote:
Thanks everybody.
I want to get detailed pictures of fungus to investigate it's nature (determine the type), since certain types of fungus may permanently damage lens coating, while others - not, so it may not be reasonable to disassemble lens just for that. Also, sometimes, what you consider fungus, is not a fungus at all, as shown on this picture (the object dimension is about 0.4x0.15mm) it is on the inner side of rear lens of hexanon ar 135mm/3.5
_________________ I have nothing to compensate with lens |
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ZoneV
Joined: 09 Nov 2009 Posts: 1632 Location: Germany
Expire: 2011-12-02
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Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:24 am Post subject: |
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ZoneV wrote:
Sounds like a very interesting project! _________________ Camera modification, repair and DIY - some links to look through: http://www.4photos.de/camera-diy/index-en.html
I AM A LENS NERD!
Epis, Elmaron, Emerald, Ernostar, Helioplan and Heidosmat.
Epiotar, Kameraobjektiv, Anastigmat, Epis, Meganast, Magnagon, Quinar, Culmigon, Novotrinast, Novflexar, Colorplan, Sekor, Kinon, Talon, Telemegor, Xenon, Xenar, Ultra, Ultra Star. Tessar, Janar, Visionar, Kiptar, Kipronar and Rotelar.
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uddhava
Joined: 22 Aug 2012 Posts: 3072 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2021-06-21
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Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:36 am Post subject: |
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uddhava wrote:
CuriousOne wrote: |
Thanks everybody.
I want to get detailed pictures of fungus to investigate it's nature (determine the type), since certain types of fungus may permanently damage lens coating, while others - not, so it may not be reasonable to disassemble lens just for that. Also, sometimes, what you consider fungus, is not a fungus at all, as shown on this picture (the object dimension is about 0.4x0.15mm) it is on the inner side of rear lens of hexanon ar 135mm/3.5
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Looks like a lens fairy! |
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Pancolart
Joined: 04 Feb 2008 Posts: 3704 Location: Slovenia, EU
Expire: 2013-11-18
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Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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Pancolart wrote:
Just see what Leeuwenhoek done at home already in the year 1670. 500x optical magnification: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonie_van_Leeuwenhoek
And the story of Delft, Holland was born . _________________ ---------------------------------
The Peculiar Apparatus Of Victorian Steampunk Photography: 100+ Genuine Steampunk Camera Designs https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B92829NS |
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CuriousOne
Joined: 31 Dec 2013 Posts: 669 Location: Home
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Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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CuriousOne wrote:
He didn't had camera attached
I do have good quality lab grade microscope, but it is unusable for lens diagnostic. _________________ I have nothing to compensate with lens |
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Ray Parkhurst
Joined: 04 Jul 2011 Posts: 504 Location: Santa Clara, CA, USA
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Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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Ray Parkhurst wrote:
The image quality you're showing could probably be achieved with a 4x or 5x objective with NA=0.1. You can either crop what you're interested in, or get a bit higher quality by using a teleconverter. I have a lens with fungus on inner surface (between elements, cannot be fixed) and would be willing to take a pic of it if you are interested. I'd probably just use a Nikon M5 objective for this as the quality is quite good...Ray |
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uddhava
Joined: 22 Aug 2012 Posts: 3072 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2021-06-21
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Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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uddhava wrote:
Very interesting. |
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CuriousOne
Joined: 31 Dec 2013 Posts: 669 Location: Home
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Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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CuriousOne wrote:
Yes, photos of fungus are welcomed. _________________ I have nothing to compensate with lens |
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Ray Parkhurst
Joined: 04 Jul 2011 Posts: 504 Location: Santa Clara, CA, USA
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:43 am Post subject: |
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Ray Parkhurst wrote:
To demonstrate a couple different techniques, I took pics of a Tominon E36 MC 48mm f4 copy lens that has fungus growth between the first two cemented lenses in rear lens group. I used three lens configurations, and three processing techniques:
1. 3x Microscope Objective
2. 3x Microscope Objective with 2x Teleconverter
3. 10x Microscope objective with 2x Teleconverter
A. Full Sensor image downsized 4x
B. 100% Crop
C. 50% Crop downsized 2x
Here are the images:
3x Objective, full sensor downsized 4x
3x Objective, 100% crop
3X Objective with 2x Teleconverter, full sensor downsized 4x
3x Objective with 2x Teleconverter, 50% crop downsized 2x
10x Objective with 2x Teleconverter, full sensor downsized 4x
10x Objective with 2x Teleconverter, 100% crop
Compare the 3x Objective, 100% crop to the 3x Objective with 2x Teleconverter, 50% crop downsized 2x. The latter image is far superior due to the reduction of sensor distortions at pixel level.
This lens appears to have 3, possibly 4 different types of fungus. The purple color is delamination occurring around the fungal colonies, presumably due to chemical action from the waste products of fungus eating the cement holding the lenses together.
Note that the 3x objective required an 11-image stack; the 3x with 2x teleconverter required a 26-image stack; and the 10x with 2x teleconverter required a 36-image stack. |
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AMDBill
Joined: 09 Feb 2010 Posts: 109
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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AMDBill wrote:
hello
could you post a photo of your set-up for macro fungus shooting ? please |
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CuriousOne
Joined: 31 Dec 2013 Posts: 669 Location: Home
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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CuriousOne wrote:
WOW, impressive!
But what you mean by "stack" ?
stack photos due to bad illumination to increase the brightness, as astronomy guys do? _________________ I have nothing to compensate with lens |
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Himself
Joined: 01 Mar 2007 Posts: 3242 Location: Montreal
Expire: 2013-05-30
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Himself wrote:
CuriousOne wrote: |
WOW, impressive!
But what you mean by "stack" ?
stack photos due to bad illumination to increase the brightness, as astronomy guys do? |
No.
He meant stack due to the small DOF. _________________ Moderator Himself |
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