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Misha_M
Joined: 08 Oct 2012 Posts: 178
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Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:29 pm Post subject: Measuring lens resolution... |
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Misha_M wrote:
Good evening!
Lens resolution in lp\mm is displayed at technical passport information for many older lenses.
For example, Helios 44M7 lens has resolution of 50/30 lp\mm centre\side.
How does one measure the lens resolution?
Can a test for resolution be performed at home, or is special precision equipment needed? _________________ Tair 11 133 f/2.8 1958
Jupiter 9 85 f/2 1959
Helios 44M 58 f/2 1978
Helios 44-2 58 f/2 1977
Helios 44 (13 blades) 1959
Helios 77M4 50 f/1.8
Zenitar-M 50 f/1.7 1986
Industar-61 L\Z 50 f/2.8
Helios 40-2, 85 f/1.5 1974 |
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hasan
Joined: 12 Mar 2007 Posts: 313
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Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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hasan wrote:
http://www.imatest.com/
and here infos on how-to:
http://www.imatest.com/docs/lens_testing/#download |
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danfromm
Joined: 04 Sep 2011 Posts: 595
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Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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danfromm wrote:
Testing resolution used to be easier. Just buy a USAF-1951 chart, set up camera, lens and chart as directed and shoot, process, and look at the negative with, ideally, a microscope and look up the smallest group and element that can be read.
For an alternative that's less expensive than Imatest and that gets to lp/mm, not MTF at some spatial frequencies, see http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF5.html
Resolution figures given for Soviet lenses were measured with the lens wide open. I believe that the reason for this is to indicate the worst resolution a user can expect to get. I've never been clear on which target was used or on how the film was developed. All of these will affect measured resolution, as will exposure. There was a standard ... |
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Misha_M
Joined: 08 Oct 2012 Posts: 178
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Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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Misha_M wrote:
Well, it is kind of logical, to measure wide open and get the worse, because it can only get better from that, so if your worst is better that the average, or even best, of your competitor, you will be much superior!
Anyway, can the testing be done with digital camera and not film?
Meaning, can I test on camera and print on A4 page? _________________ Tair 11 133 f/2.8 1958
Jupiter 9 85 f/2 1959
Helios 44M 58 f/2 1978
Helios 44-2 58 f/2 1977
Helios 44 (13 blades) 1959
Helios 77M4 50 f/1.8
Zenitar-M 50 f/1.7 1986
Industar-61 L\Z 50 f/2.8
Helios 40-2, 85 f/1.5 1974 |
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iangreenhalgh1
Joined: 18 Mar 2011 Posts: 15679
Expire: 2014-01-07
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Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Yes, you can do it with a digital camera, you don't need to print anything, you shoot a test chart then examine the RAW file.
I don't see any point at all in measuring resolution if you're going to be using the lens for normal photography, if it's sharp enough, it's sharp enough. _________________ I don't care who designed it, who made it or what country it comes from - I just enjoy using it! |
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scsambrook
Joined: 29 Mar 2009 Posts: 2167 Location: Glasgow Scotland
Expire: 2011-11-18
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Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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scsambrook wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote: |
. . . I don't see any point at all in measuring resolution if you're going to be using the lens for normal photography, if it's sharp enough, it's sharp enough. |
Well, I'm absolutely in agreement with Ian about sharp enough, but it's still fun to mess around on a miserable, cold, wet day, trying to establish arithmetically what we probably already know.
Today's seekers-after-knowledge are spoiled rotten with all the wonderful charts than can be downloaded. Fifty years ago we didn't know any better than to photograph newspaper pages stuck on the wall and then see how clearly we could read the small print in the negatives _________________ Stephen
Equipment: Pentax DSLR for casual shooting, Lumix G1 and Fuji XE-1 for playing with old lenses, and Leica M8 because I still like the optical rangefinder system. |
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twinquartz
Joined: 11 Jun 2012 Posts: 316 Location: Sweden
Expire: 2013-10-29
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Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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twinquartz wrote:
scsambrook wrote: |
Fifty years ago we didn't know any better than to photograph newspaper pages stuck on the wall and then see how clearly we could read the small print... |
But Stephen, what's wrong with trying exactly the same today? |
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Misha_M
Joined: 08 Oct 2012 Posts: 178
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Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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Misha_M wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote: |
Yes, you can do it with a digital camera, you don't need to print anything, you shoot a test chart then examine the RAW file.
I don't see any point at all in measuring resolution if you're going to be using the lens for normal photography, if it's sharp enough, it's sharp enough. |
Hmm... how do you examine it and get the lp\mm from it?
Take picture of the chart and enlarge on you monitor?
I like doing things myself, and also at times there is contradicting info about lens resolution on line, so it would be nice to check for oneself. _________________ Tair 11 133 f/2.8 1958
Jupiter 9 85 f/2 1959
Helios 44M 58 f/2 1978
Helios 44-2 58 f/2 1977
Helios 44 (13 blades) 1959
Helios 77M4 50 f/1.8
Zenitar-M 50 f/1.7 1986
Industar-61 L\Z 50 f/2.8
Helios 40-2, 85 f/1.5 1974 |
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iangreenhalgh1
Joined: 18 Mar 2011 Posts: 15679
Expire: 2014-01-07
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Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
It really is a waste of time. What does it matter if a lens has 45 or 50 lp/mm central resolution? _________________ I don't care who designed it, who made it or what country it comes from - I just enjoy using it! |
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ForenSeil
Joined: 15 Apr 2011 Posts: 2726 Location: Kiel, Germany.
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:10 am Post subject: |
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ForenSeil wrote:
Because it's a waste of time which makes fun imho
I've also experiemented with that.
I've used a DINA4 test chart from Ebay which I currently can't find anymore for that. It directly showed lp/mm for a special fixed magnification (1:40 in that case). Stopped down with good 50mm lenses my NEX-5N sensor was outresolved that much that I had to use Efke 25KB film which worked well. But then lenses outresolved the test chart and I had to repeat the test at lower 1:80 magnification and recalculate the test results
Digital cameras generally have much lower resolution than low iso B/W film, wich makes it generally very hard to count lines in the tests charts.
Ultra high resolution lenses like Biogon 25/2.8 for example are impossible to get outresolved with any recent digital sensors (it would need about let's say 100 megapixels).
For Helios lenses normal digital sensors like from your camera might have just enough resolution, but only wide open only if at all, forget testing their max. center resolution at F5.6.
Another big problem with both digital and film is shutter vibration. Can be only avoided by very fast shutter speeds (1/500s) or special tricks like HSS flash setups etc..
Of course self-timer, tripod, m-mode, external ambience lightmeter/luxmeter or flashmeter for flash-setups, water-level, folding rule etc., fixed artificial light in 45° angle (to get a reproducable contrast),... have to be used to get reproducable "scientific" results.
But I found that a brickwall- and/or white wall & newspaper test gives more meaningful results - clarity, corner performance, distortion, fine contrast and sharpness are more important than pure resolution, especially on digital. Also some sources of multispectral light (candle light, halogen, tungsten, sun reflected by metal) in the setup give some very good feedbacks about CAs and flaring. Such a test setup is much easier, faster and gives more feedback at once.
Btw. I found that Helios 44-M7 was slightly softer than my 44-2, while it was supposed to be sharper in the center. The M7 was slightly better in the corners though. I think quality spreading might be one reason for that. _________________ I'm not a collector, I'm a tester
My camera: Sony A7+Zeiss Sonnar 55/1.8
Current favourite lenses (I have many more):
A few macro-Tominons, Samyang 12/2.8, Noritsu 50.7/9.5, Rodagon 105/5.6 on bellows, Samyang 135/2, Nikon ED 180/2.8, Leitz Elmar-R 250/4, Celestron C8 2000mm F10
Most wanted: Samyang 24/1.4, Samyang 35/1.4, Nikon 200/2 ED
My Blog: http://picturechemistry.own-blog.com/
(German language)
Last edited by ForenSeil on Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:01 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Ray Parkhurst
Joined: 04 Jul 2011 Posts: 504 Location: Santa Clara, CA, USA
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:39 am Post subject: |
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Ray Parkhurst wrote:
I like to use a 2x Teleconverter to aid in checking lens resolution. I've never cared to check quantitatively, only qualitatively. The teleconverter gives you double the spacial resolution, so the camera is not as limiting. It makes it easier to compare lenses, or to find optimum apertures when the lens is better than the camera...Ray |
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scsambrook
Joined: 29 Mar 2009 Posts: 2167 Location: Glasgow Scotland
Expire: 2011-11-18
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:07 am Post subject: |
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scsambrook wrote:
twinquartz wrote: |
scsambrook wrote: |
Fifty years ago we didn't know any better than to photograph newspaper pages stuck on the wall and then see how clearly we could read the small print... |
But Stephen, what's wrong with trying exactly the same today? |
Nothing at all - We could even devise a new unit of measurement based on the various type sizes and/or fonts used by a given newspaper. Or the 'dots' in photos and adverts. I think that might be a great exercise for a cold, wet winter afternoon. We could also stick things like Kodak film cartons or Coca Cola wrappers to the sheets to let us compare colour rendering (both firms use exactly standardised colours). C'mon guys, let's get back to basics !!! _________________ Stephen
Equipment: Pentax DSLR for casual shooting, Lumix G1 and Fuji XE-1 for playing with old lenses, and Leica M8 because I still like the optical rangefinder system. |
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twinquartz
Joined: 11 Jun 2012 Posts: 316 Location: Sweden
Expire: 2013-10-29
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Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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twinquartz wrote:
scsambrook wrote: |
We could also stick things like Kodak film cartons or Coca Cola wrappers to the sheets to let us compare colour rendering (both firms use exactly standardised colours). C'mon guys, let's get back to basics !!! |
Good idea! PM sent... |
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kds315*
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 16658 Location: Weinheim, Germany
Expire: 2021-03-09
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Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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kds315* wrote:
Well, "testing lenses" once and foremost tests the ability of the tester to conduct a test correctly.
If you don't have experience with it - leave it to the professionals as the results will be at best
misleading, at 2nd best, embarrassing - not for the lenses but the tester.
Just talking about my own experience.... _________________ Klaus - Admin
"S'il vient a point, me souviendra" [Thomas Bohier (1460-1523)]
http://www.macrolenses.de for macro and special lens info
http://www.pbase.com/kds315/uv_photos for UV Images and lens/filter info
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/albums my albums using various lenses
http://photographyoftheinvisibleworld.blogspot.com/ my UV BLOG
http://www.travelmeetsfood.com/blog Food + Travel BLOG
https://galeriafotografia.com Architecture + Drone photography
Currently most FAV lens(es):
X80QF f3.2/80mm
Hypergon f11/26mm
ELCAN UV f5.6/52mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f4/60mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f2/62mm
Lomo Уфар-12 f2.5/41mm
Lomo Зуфар-2 f4.0/350mm
Lomo ZIKAR-1A f1.2/100mm
Nikon UV Nikkor f4.5/105mm
Zeiss UV-Sonnar f4.3/105mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f1.8/45mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f4.1/94mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f2.8/100mm
Steinheil Quarzobjektiv f1.8/50mm
Pentax Quartz Takumar f3.5/85mm
Carl Zeiss Jena UV-Objektiv f4/60mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha II f1.1/90mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha I f2.8/200mm
COASTAL OPTICS f4/60mm UV-VIS-IR Apo
COASTAL OPTICS f4.5/105mm UV-Micro-Apo
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f4.5/85mm
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f5.6/300mm
Rodenstock UV-Rodagon f5.6/60mm + 105mm + 150mm
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iangreenhalgh1
Joined: 18 Mar 2011 Posts: 15679
Expire: 2014-01-07
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Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
I agree Klaus. The sharpness you achieve in the end result has many factors, lens resolution being one of them, but I tend to think that it is less important than other factors such as technique. _________________ I don't care who designed it, who made it or what country it comes from - I just enjoy using it! |
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