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Konica T3 Metering with 1.4V Batteries
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:10 pm    Post subject: Konica T3 Metering with 1.4V Batteries Reply with quote
I'm going to put a roll of film through a recent Konica T3 I aquired, but I had a question about the metering system it has if anyone has used this camera before recently. The camera required 1.35V mercury batteries which are not available anymore, so I stuck 1.4V hearing air batteries in there instead. I was wondering how much the extra 0.05V will throw off my metering. I was reading that it is somewhere between 1/2 - 1 stop but just wanted to make sure. So this means that if I am using ISO 400 film, I should set the T3 to ISO 300-200 correct?

Tips from anyone having experience with this camera and the metering issue with modern batteries would be greatly appreciated.


PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
On my TC, I've stuck 1.5v batteries in and it's 1/2 stop out......mind you the meter might have been out before anyway and it sorta corrected it Wink On my MTL3, I put a 1.5v in and had to set the asa dial to 80 for 200 asa film...so it didn't work for that camera.


PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I know the T3 has a battery check where if you take the lens off, set the camera to shutter speed of 125 and film ISO 100, if you rotate the on switch counterclockwise, the needle should align with the little red area between F8 and 11 for it to be a good battery. If I put the 1.4V battery in, and I keep the shutter speed at 125, I have the set the film ISO to 40 for the needle to be in that area.

So I was thinking when shooting ISO 400 film, I need to set the camera to around ISO 160 for it to have proper metering. I compared the metering read outs to another camera (Konica FS-1) that takes normal AA 1.5V alkaline batteries, and the metering is very close on both cameras. So am I safe to shoot ISO 400 film by setting the T3 around ISO 160 with 1.4V batteries in it?


PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
verbatimium wrote:
I know the T3 has a battery check where if you take the lens off, set the camera to shutter speed of 125 and film ISO 100, if you rotate the on switch counterclockwise, the needle should align with the little red area between F8 and 11 for it to be a good battery. If I put the 1.4V battery in, and I keep the shutter speed at 125, I have the set the film ISO to 40 for the needle to be in that area.

So I was thinking when shooting ISO 400 film, I need to set the camera to around ISO 160 for it to have proper metering. I compared the metering read outs to another camera (Konica FS-1) that takes normal AA 1.5V alkaline batteries, and the metering is very close on both cameras. So am I safe to shoot ISO 400 film by setting the T3 around ISO 160 with 1.4V batteries in it?


Well you could use the camera with a separate exposure meter, but there should be no problem in reducing the asa dial to 160 asa....but just to make sure, check the exposure reading from low to bright light and see if it's ok in that range compared to another camera. Anyway neg film is forgiving for errors in exposure, but slide film is less tolerant...so using neg film always set for a bit over exposure if in doubt


PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you for your input. Unfortunately I don't have a dedicated metering device.

I made sure to meter on both something dim (metered to F2 with shutter speed 125) and something really bright (metered between F8-11 with shutter speeds 125), and both cameras were very close to each other when the T3 was set to ISO 160, while the other camera was at ISO 400. I also took out my digital camera and metered the same areas using shutter speed 125 and digital ISO 400 and it was spot on to what the other cameras were give me. So I guess the Konica T3 with 1.4V hearing aid batteries is off about 1 1/3 stop.

On a side note, has anyone tried to adjust the metering system in the Konica T3 to display correct metering on 1.4V or 1.5V batteries? I have taken the top plate off on the T3 before (it is quite easy to do) and had access to the metering adjustment dials but didn't really know what to do. There are some very primitive instructions on how to do it here:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/classics/forum/messages/6899/7731.html?1162569589



PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Was that a typo when you posted one and a third stop i.e. 1 1/3 stop Question


PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Excalibur wrote:
Was that a typo when you posted one and a third stop i.e. 1 1/3 stop Question


No. Isn't the difference between ISO 400 and ISO 160 = 1 1/3 stops? or am I mistaking?


PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
verbatimium wrote:
Excalibur wrote:
Was that a typo when you posted one and a third stop i.e. 1 1/3 stop Question


No. Isn't the difference between ISO 400 and ISO 160 = 1 1/3 stops? or am I mistaking?


Sorry my fault as I misread your last post Embarassed But when you come to think of it, you would think 0.05v increase wouldn't make much difference Shocked


PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Excalibur wrote:
verbatimium wrote:
Excalibur wrote:
Was that a typo when you posted one and a third stop i.e. 1 1/3 stop Question


No. Isn't the difference between ISO 400 and ISO 160 = 1 1/3 stops? or am I mistaking?


Sorry my fault as I misread your last post Embarassed But when you come to think of it, you would think 0.05v increase wouldn't make much difference Shocked


Yes that is why I was quite skeptical at first, but it seems to be the case. There are 2 batteries in there in series so the voltage ads (actual difference is 0.05V*2 = 0.1V). From the web, other people say that from their experience, the difference is half to a full stop but with the latitude of film, they may just be very slightly overexposing without really knowing because the final image still looks good. Anyway, I will shoot a roll of film while hoping my calculations are correct, and I will update how it turned out.


PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
verbatimium wrote:
Excalibur wrote:
verbatimium wrote:
Excalibur wrote:
Was that a typo when you posted one and a third stop i.e. 1 1/3 stop Question


No. Isn't the difference between ISO 400 and ISO 160 = 1 1/3 stops? or am I mistaking?


Sorry my fault as I misread your last post Embarassed But when you come to think of it, you would think 0.05v increase wouldn't make much difference Shocked


Yes that is why I was quite skeptical at first, but it seems to be the case. There are 2 batteries in there in series so the voltage ads (actual difference is 0.05V*2 = 0.1V). From the web, other people say that from their experience, the difference is half to a full stop but with the latitude of film, they may just be very slightly overexposing without really knowing because the final image still looks good. Anyway, I will shoot a roll of film while hoping my calculations are correct, and I will update how it turned out.


Great to keep us posted as it's a common question about putting new voltage batteries in old cameras...AAMOI my Minolta SRT101b has a 1.5v battery in and the exposure meter is spot on. Cool Bought it S/H and who knows, it might have been adjusted in the past to take this battery Question


PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
So I shot a cheap roll of film to see if my battery voltage/metering calculations worked and I must say that the metering was spot on.

Just to update people, I put 1.4V hearing aid batteries in a Konica T3N which takes mercury 1.35V batteries (because of the difference in voltage, the metering is off). What I then did was a battery check (for Konica T3N, you have to set the camera to shutter speed 125, film ASA 100, and rotate the on/off switch counter clockwise to "c"). The metering needle should line up with the small red area that is between F8 and F11. However, because of the higher voltage batteries, the needle was going past that area to around F16. I found that I had to set the ASA to 40 for the needle to line up with the correct red battery check area, so the 1.4V batteries were throwing off the metering system by one and a third (1 1/3) stop.

I threw in some ASA 400 film, but set my camera to ASA 160 (1 1/3 stop difference) and shot the roll using the T3N's metering system. I had the pictures printed, and I also scanned the pictures using an Epson V750 Pro scanner without any adjustments. I imported the pictures into Lightroom to check the Histogram, and it appeared to be spot on in each picture. Here are 2 examples, once again, exposure was not digitally altered in these pictures.

NEXT STEP: Calibrate the metering of the Konica T3N so that it displays correct metering for 1.4V hearing aid batteries. I have found some very primitive information about this. I don't want to initially try it on my mint Konica T3N, so I will first get a beat up cheap T3/T3N in which the metering still works, and try it on that camera before I attempt it on mine.

Hope you enjoy the pictures.





PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's a bit involved, perhaps. But if all else fails, or if authenticity becomes a priority, there's always this adaptation:

http://www.butkus.org/chinon/batt-adapt-us.pdf


PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
You could use a MR-9 adapter, available here:

http://www.smallbattery.company.org.uk/sbc_mr9_adapter.htm


PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
guardian wrote:
It's a bit involved, perhaps. But if all else fails, or if authenticity becomes a priority, there's always this adaptation:

http://www.butkus.org/chinon/batt-adapt-us.pdf


Didn't know something like that existed, thanks!

When you say it is a bit involved, have you personally done it with the T3/T3N. I am not going to touch the voltage within the camera at all. From what I was reading, there are 2 adjustment screws, each for bright or dark metering, that only alters the position of the metering needle. I was just going to adjust those screws so that the needle reads a difference of 1 1/3 stop. This should allow the camera to correctly meter with 1.4V hearing aid batteries without directly adjusting the the voltage within the camera.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
verbatimium wrote:
guardian wrote:
It's a bit involved, perhaps. But if all else fails, or if authenticity becomes a priority, there's always this adaptation:

http://www.butkus.org/chinon/batt-adapt-us.pdf


Didn't know something like that existed, thanks!

When you say it is a bit involved, have you personally done it with the T3/T3N. I am not going to touch the voltage within the camera at all. From what I was reading, there are 2 adjustment screws, each for bright or dark metering, that only alters the position of the metering needle. I was just going to adjust those screws so that the needle reads a difference of 1 1/3 stop. This should allow the camera to correctly meter with 1.4V hearing aid batteries without directly adjusting the the voltage within the camera.


The item I posted allows people today, right now, to "create" a mercury cell equivalent on their own. Folks without the requisite electrical and soldering skills can farm the job out to a technician. But once the adapters are created they do not "wear out". You use them over and over again, by replacing as required the cell each adapter contains.

I've not built these personally. I am collecting the necessary (old style) parts, though. Use of the adapter does not imply or require any adjustments to your camera, unless those adjustments would have been needed anyway were mercury cells still available.

Again, all the adapter does is to take cells readily available today and adjust their voltage so as precisely to duplicate the voltage of a mercury cell. The camera body cannot tell the difference; it thinks there actually is a mercury cell present.

It's also possible these adapters can be purchased. But, I'm sorry, I don't know where or how.

Last edited by guardian on Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:15 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
guardian wrote:
It's possible these adapters also can be purchased. But, I'm sorry, I don't know where or how.


As I mentioned in my post above, see here.

http://www.smallbattery.company.org.uk/sbc_mr9_adapter.htm


PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
DigiChromeEd wrote:
guardian wrote:
It's possible these adapters also can be purchased. But, I'm sorry, I don't know where or how.


As I mentioned in my post above, see here.

http://www.smallbattery.company.org.uk/sbc_mr9_adapter.htm


Have you tried whether these battery adapters work accurately? Seems pretty expensive for 2 of those adapters when the camera is only worth 20-30$ itself, and you can just adjust the ASA setting for proper exposure. Would probably be a cheaper fix than an electrician adjusting the voltage in the camera though.

Has anyone every tried adjusting the meter needle position screws though (without adjusting the voltage) so that it the meter position is correct for 1.4V or 1.5V batteries?


PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
DigiChromeEd wrote:
guardian wrote:
It's possible these adapters also can be purchased. But, I'm sorry, I don't know where or how.


As I mentioned in my post above, see here.

http://www.smallbattery.company.org.uk/sbc_mr9_adapter.htm


Yes, just so. Very well done.

I acknowledge the price is a bit stiff. Don't know why, really. Imagine most folks end up building the adapters themselves; much less costly doing it that way. Or else, as I pointed out earlier, you could hire a tech to do the job. It would not take a good tech very long to get this done. And the parts are inexpensive.

When I bring in a Konica camera (most often bought for its lens) that still has the old batteries, I save them even if they are dead. Those old batteries are the right size to form the basis for an adapter. Do like the Konica FC-1 model, though; it presents no battery challenges. Smile


PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
guardian wrote:
Do like the Konica FC-1 model, though; it presents no battery challenges. Smile


Well except for the crappy battery holder contacts that break easily Sad well assuming the FC1 is the same as FS1 and FT1.


PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Excalibur wrote:
guardian wrote:
Do like the Konica FC-1 model, though; it presents no battery challenges. Smile


Well except for the crappy battery holder contacts that break easily Sad well assuming the FC1 is the same as FS1 and FT1.


Dunno. I have no experience with the FS-1 or with the FT-1.

The FC-1 battery holder is a sort of "stick", made of white plastic, with a cover that opens to allow insertion of four small batteries.


PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
guardian wrote:
Excalibur wrote:
guardian wrote:
Do like the Konica FC-1 model, though; it presents no battery challenges. Smile


Well except for the crappy battery holder contacts that break easily Sad well assuming the FC1 is the same as FS1 and FT1.


Dunno. I have no experience with the FS-1 or with the FT-1.

The FC-1 battery holder is a sort of "stick", made of white plastic, with a cover that opens to allow insertion of four small batteries.



Seems different then...the FS1 and FT1 take AA or AAA batteries


PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
For anyone that is interested, I have successfully calibrated my Konica T3N's metering system to meter correctly when using 1.4V hearing aid batteries. It is actually quite easy to do (when you have removed the top cover). Once you are in, there is one screw where the metering system is (on the left side when the camera mount is facing away from you) that allows you to +/- compensate the needle location.

Beforehand, I found that for my camera while using 1.4V hearing aid batteries threw the metering off exactly 1 1/3 stop. So I just adjusted the needle to compensate for that and it meters perfectly now. Very general tools required.
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