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Silver M39 Mir 1 lenses - not covering full frame sensor?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject: Silver M39 Mir 1 lenses - not covering full frame sensor? Reply with quote
Hi there folks.

Recently I got 2 beautiful Mir 1 37mm f/2.8 lenses.
Both have serial numbers with 0s' in them, are silver and M39 mount.
One even has red "n" and the "grand prix" inscription on it!
One has also been permanently adapted to M42 mount...

Now, when shooting with them, I noticed that for distances above ~3 meters I start getting some parts of the image "blackened", as though somebody put a finger there or something.

The further you go, the more black you get in the photo; at infinity it's maybe 80% or so...

Thought that something happened to my adapter, mirror or camera, so I checked other M39 lenses I have and another adapter;
Didn't help at all...

That's strange, because the lenses are, of course, for "full frame" of film \ sensor, and are for SLR cameras.

So, anybody knows what's going on ?


PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
What camera are you using the lens on? I had a Mir-1 m42 grand prix a long time ago and i remember it would stop the mirror at infinity on my Pentax K20D if I had screwed the lens on too tight. (Pentax has a 45.5m flange distance mind you)

The rear element and flange that protects the rear element actaully extends quite some ways back at inifinty. Could be the issue.


PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
When this issue came up last it turned out the person just put too deep a hood on the front...

I've never seen significant vignetting on any film camera or my a850.


PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm using the canon 5D mark I.
Not using anything on the lens, no hoods or filters...

The blackening changes with the focal length.

I checked the lenses and saw that the rear element does extend a few mm back when going from MFD to infinity.
Can this be the cause?


PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
all 35mm film camera lens cover 35mm no matter digital or film, no idea what is actual issue but not lens itself that is pretty sure.


PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Post a photo but I'm pretty sure the rear flange of the lens is 'catching'/blocking the mirror such that it doesn't flip all the way up and obscures part of the image. Sad


PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
When this issue came up last it turned out the person just put too deep a hood on the front...

Yes, I remember the stupid person was me Embarassed

Quote:
I'm pretty sure the rear flange of the lens is 'catching'/blocking the mirror such that it doesn't flip all the way up and obscures part of the image.


I think the same. Mir-1 block the mirror if you don't shave the rare metal part.


PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
BurstMox wrote:
Quote:
When this issue came up last it turned out the person just put too deep a hood on the front...

Yes, I remember the stupid person was me Embarassed

Quote:
I'm pretty sure the rear flange of the lens is 'catching'/blocking the mirror such that it doesn't flip all the way up and obscures part of the image.


I think the same. Mir-1 block the mirror if you don't shave the rare metal part.


That would be quite unfortunate Sad

Can this be done safely by an amateur?


PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Some photos of the lenses, and what I get when shooting with them...

The 2 lenses together


From side at MFD; notice rear part


From side at 3 meters; notice rear part


From side at infinity; notice rear part


at MFD; notice rear part


at infinity; notice rear part


image at MFD


image at ~1.2 meters


image at ~2.2 meters


image at ~2.5 meters


image at ~3 meters


image at ~3.5 meters


image at 4 meters


PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
definitely mirror hitting lens - the mirror is at the top of the camera, but as the image is upside-down on the sensor it shows as a horizontal out of focus dark band at the bottom of the image


PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Basilisk wrote:
definitely mirror hitting lens - the mirror is at the top of the camera, but as the image is upside-down on the sensor it shows as a horizontal out of focus dark band at the bottom of the image


What can be done to fix this?


PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
definitely mirror hitting lens

+1

Quote:
What can be done to fix this?


Shave your 5D mirror, or shave this :



But honestly, I wouldn't do this to this beautifull lens (especialy the 00 one). I did this to my common Mir-1B, but I never touch rare lenses.


PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
BurstMox wrote:
Quote:
definitely mirror hitting lens

+1

Quote:
What can be done to fix this?


Shave your 5D mirror, or shave this :



But honestly, I wouldn't do this to this beautifull lens (especialy the 00 one). I did this to my common Mir-1B, but I never touch rare lenses.


Is this (any of the 2 procedures) something an amateur with no knowledge of photo repair can do safely, without risking damage to the lens \ camera?

And if I shave mirror, will it effect something in the camera \ resulting images?


PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I would recommend to shave the lens rather than the mirror of the camera, easier and less damaging (for future resell of the camera if needed), I've done this with several lenses (pancolar, zeiss flektogon, etc) with successful results.

The other option you have is to use another m42-eos adapter, I own a MIR grand prix just like yours and today I tested it to infinity, no mirror hit at all (my adapter is from ROXSEN).

Good luck


PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Other FF cameras I could recommend using live view, but not an option I believe on the 5D mk 1
Just use them for closeup work?
If the distance scale is accurate on the lens, you could use them with mirror lock up?
5D mk1 is not going to make a bundle on the second hand market, so maybe you could risk tampering with the mirror, but a safer option might be buying some other lenses (m42?) of this length - plenty of other options in the 35mm f2.8 category


PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Screw the camera. It's a great one but lets be real, it's an outdated digital that has already lost 80% of its original value. A cleanly shaved mirror won't hurt the re-sale much at all.

Please don't alter a rare version of a 60 year old lens. It deserves more respect. The collar is there to protect the back element. If it's not there, when the lens is focused at infinity the back element is totally exposed. All you need is to put it down one time to put a nice, deep gash in it.


PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
1st thing 1st - I don't need 2 of the same lens, and both seem to be roughly of the same quality, with the red 'n' having better contrast & side light resistance.
So, the left one is now for sale on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MINT-RARE-early-serial-Silver-Mir-1-37mm-f-2-8-lens-lens-with-case-caps-/251391466021?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item3a88195a25

Good luck!

inombrable wrote:
I would recommend to shave the lens rather than the mirror of the camera, easier and less damaging (for future resell of the camera if needed), I've done this with several lenses (pancolar, zeiss flektogon, etc) with successful results.

The other option you have is to use another m42-eos adapter, I own a MIR grand prix just like yours and today I tested it to infinity, no mirror hit at all (my adapter is from ROXSEN).

Good luck


Tried that; I have 1 ROXSEN and one PIXCO adapter, and both produce the same result; the ROXSEN even at shorter ranges.

How exactly does one "trim" such a metal part? or can you bend it to the side as well?

Basilisk wrote:
Other FF cameras I could recommend using live view, but not an option I believe on the 5D mk 1
Just use them for closeup work?
If the distance scale is accurate on the lens, you could use them with mirror lock up?
5D mk1 is not going to make a bundle on the second hand market, so maybe you could risk tampering with the mirror, but a safer option might be buying some other lenses (m42?) of this length - plenty of other options in the 35mm f2.8 category


Live view wouldn't help here even if present on the 5D I.
Mirror lock up - can try, although that would not really be comfortable for taking more then a shot here and there (but it's better than nothing...) .

I have other lenses and can get other m39 \ m42, but that's not the point here; each lens from that era is unique, and has its own character.
Mir is a very nice lens, with smooth bokeh and low vignetting and other aberrations.


PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Screw the camera. It's a great one but lets be real, it's an outdated digital that has already lost 80% of its original value. A cleanly shaved mirror won't hurt the re-sale much at all.

Please don't alter a rare version of a 60 year old lens. It deserves more respect. The collar is there to protect the back element. If it's not there, when the lens is focused at infinity the back element is totally exposed. All you need is to put it down one time to put a nice, deep gash in it.


+10
Your lens is not a common Grand prix brussel Mir-1 Rolling Eyes , it would be very pity to alter it, even if it's well made, just to get infiny on a 5D.


Quote:
The other option you have is to use another m42-eos adapter, I own a MIR grand prix just like yours and today I tested it to infinity, no mirror hit at all (my adapter is from ROXSEN).

I don't really believe adapter have something to do with it. Infinity is reached when the back of the lens reach a certain distance to sensor. If you use another adapter, you may focus to infiny on the marking, but you won't get infinity on the photo, because the adapter will be too thick.
But on the Mir-1, you can see that this black metal thing is semi-circular, so maybe if this semi-circular thing is on the bottom part (when when the lens is screwed), the mirror may work properly.


PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I seriously doubt that someone would pay the same amount of money for a Mir 1 than for a 5D these days, even in five years when the 5D is more devaluated, i paid for my copy 10 GBP.

In fact adapters had sometimes a lot do, some let you reach focus past infinity (as you said the focus is when the rear element is to a certain distance to the sensor) and as we are talking about millimeters here, that could make a difference in mirror hit or not. And BE SURE i can distinguish between focusing to infinity in my pictures. As i said before i get infinity focus on both THE MARK and THE PICTURE with my MIR and my 5D.

But that was not the question in this thread,

Don't get me wrong, i wouldn't recommend modifying either the lens or the camera, but IF you decide to do it, if want to shave the lens, you can do it CAREFULLY with sand paper (you will need to shave very little of that metal protection of the rear element). If you want to shave the mirror, well that is different issue as you won't have much space to work, you need to shave both plastic and the mirror at the same time, and there is always the risk that some of that debris end in the sensor.

Wish you good luck on the decision you take.


PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Perfect for a mirrorless. It looks a bit lost on a 5D!
My similar Flektogon is very well suited to my NEX 5N.


PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
inombrable wrote:
I seriously doubt that someone would pay the same amount of money for a Mir 1 than for a 5D these days, even in five years when the 5D is more devaluated, i paid for my copy 10 GBP.

In fact adapters had sometimes a lot do, some let you reach focus past infinity (as you said the focus is when the rear element is to a certain distance to the sensor) and as we are talking about millimeters here, that could make a difference in mirror hit or not. And BE SURE i can distinguish between focusing to infinity in my pictures. As i said before i get infinity focus on both THE MARK and THE PICTURE with my MIR and my 5D.

But that was not the question in this thread,

Don't get me wrong, i wouldn't recommend modifying either the lens or the camera, but IF you decide to do it, if want to shave the lens, you can do it CAREFULLY with sand paper (you will need to shave very little of that metal protection of the rear element). If you want to shave the mirror, well that is different issue as you won't have much space to work, you need to shave both plastic and the mirror at the same time, and there is always the risk that some of that debris end in the sensor.

Wish you good luck on the decision you take.


I payed 66$ for the lens, and I doubt that it will sell for more that 200$ if I sell it.

Anyway, how much do you think will be needed to be sanded away from the "c shaped" rear metal part?
Will sand paper really be sufficient for removing metal?


PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It depends, it could be just a millimeter (could be a bit more).

The first thing you need to do is to check how much the lens is going past the adapter. That will give you and idea if by sanding a bit of the metal protection of the rear element could do the job or not as sometimes even the rear element will be so deep that will be in the way of the mirror, for example the super takumar 50 mm f/1.4 (in your case i doubt it, but is better to check first). Then check the mark on the focusing ring where you start hitting the mirror and how much is left for the infinity mark, that will also give you and idea of how much you need to sand.

I used sand paper (600) from the DIY store and it worked without any problem pancolar and flektogon. If you decide to do it be careful with that rear element and good luck.


PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The mirror is hitting quite a lot at 4m, it will be even worse at infinity. I assume this lens is designed for rangefinders, so not aimed at clearing a mirror. If you use sandpaper, and even touch that rear glass, you could ruin the lens. If you have the skills to disassemble the lens then you can sand it with impunity, but I don't know if that is easy.

Did you try rotating the lens 180 degrees and see if it still catches? If the protruding metal is only on the top then this may help. Some screw adaptors allow rotation of the thread within the mount.


PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
I assume this lens is designed for rangefinders, so not aimed at clearing a mirror.


False. It's a ZM39 lens, not LTM39.

At this point, I'd say a more appropriate section for this thread is DIY. None of these posts have anything to do about the Mir's quality, just about how to shave things off of it.


PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
inombrable wrote:
It depends, it could be just a millimeter (could be a bit more).

The first thing you need to do is to check how much the lens is going past the adapter. That will give you and idea if by sanding a bit of the metal protection of the rear element could do the job or not as sometimes even the rear element will be so deep that will be in the way of the mirror, for example the super takumar 50 mm f/1.4 (in your case i doubt it, but is better to check first). Then check the mark on the focusing ring where you start hitting the mirror and how much is left for the infinity mark, that will also give you and idea of how much you need to sand.

I used sand paper (600) from the DIY store and it worked without any problem pancolar and flektogon. If you decide to do it be careful with that rear element and good luck.


Thanks, I guess I'll give it a go soon.

Basilisk wrote:
The mirror is hitting quite a lot at 4m, it will be even worse at infinity. I assume this lens is designed for rangefinders, so not aimed at clearing a mirror. If you use sandpaper, and even touch that rear glass, you could ruin the lens. If you have the skills to disassemble the lens then you can sand it with impunity, but I don't know if that is easy.

Did you try rotating the lens 180 degrees and see if it still catches? If the protruding metal is only on the top then this may help. Some screw adaptors allow rotation of the thread within the mount.


If I rotate it is very uncomfortable to focus, as the focusing ring is just a bit stiff, but enough for needing to apply a little force when rotating.

I tried rotating, but it then just gets black in some other part of the photo, sometimes on top, sometimes on side, depending how tight you screw the M39 -> M42 ring and the lens with ring to the M42 -> EOS adapter.

themoleman342 wrote:
Quote:
I assume this lens is designed for rangefinders, so not aimed at clearing a mirror.


False. It's a ZM39 lens, not LTM39.

At this point, I'd say a more appropriate section for this thread is DIY. None of these posts have anything to do about the Mir's quality, just about how to shave things off of it.


True, it's for SLR and not for rangefinders.
DIY? is there a special section for such things here on manual gear forums?

Last edited by Misha_M on Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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