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Canon 60D and manual lenses
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:36 pm    Post subject: Canon 60D and manual lenses Reply with quote
I use some M42 lenses on my 60D, each with its own "big-is" adapter. Metering and shooting works like this:

- set camera to desired aperture, lens wide open
- meter and lock exposure
- set lens to desired aperture (same as on camera earlier)
- shoot

Now, this is all jolly good as long as I half-press the shutter button after locking the exposure in order to keep it locked while adjusting the aperture on the lens. As soon as the info in the viewfinder disappears there seems to be no way to shoot with the before metered and locked exposure.

If I don't keep the shutter button half-pressed, causing the info to disappear (after approx. 4 sec.), the camera will meter again when I do press the shutter. That, of course, results in an overexposed image. This will be exactly the same, no matter what setting I choose for C.Fn IV-1.

Does anybody know a solution for this which would allow me to lock exposure for a longer time and/or prevent the camera from re-metering when I eventually press the shutter?


PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Put the camera in manual mode?


PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:04 am    Post subject: Re: Canon 60D and manual lenses Reply with quote
Welcome nightfly!


+1 for using Manual mode Smile

nightfly wrote:
[...]- set camera to desired aperture, lens wide open
- meter and lock exposure
- set lens to desired aperture (same as on camera earlier)
- shoot [...]


I'm not familiar with this chip. I'm pretty sure metering needs done with lens set to desired aperture, not wide open. If shutter is pressed half-way and exposure lock button pressed, settings should be locked as long as shutter button is kept depressed halfway.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, +1 for manual mode.
I did used to use Tv mode but that was because I was afraid of Manual. Now, who's afraid of the big bad wolf? Not I!!


PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've never tried this method. I just open the lens up wide open, change the aperture on the camera to the maximum (widest) setting, compose, focus and stop down on the lens.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ManualFocus-G wrote:
I've never tried this method. I just open the lens up wide open, change the aperture on the camera to the maximum (widest) setting, compose, focus and stop down on the lens.

+1


PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think we need to be careful what camera model we are speaking about. Canon models seem to have different metering characteristics, and unless any of us is familiar with many of them we can't assume that our own method will work for everyone. Certainly, I don't know anything about the 60D.

My 400D is very simple, thankfully. It meters perfectly in Av mode with any lenses, even with a non-chipped adapter, and adjusts the shutter speed according to the light entering the camera. I don't need to set the widest aperture value in the camera or lock the exposure. Of course it's easier to focus wide open and then stop the lens down before metering and shooting.

With the "automatic" type of M42 lenses (with the auto pin and an Auto/Manual switch) you can set the aperture on the lens and with a plain adapter (without the flange that depresses the auto pin) the blades will stay open until the Auto/Manual switch is set on Manual. For non-automatic lenses and presets, the blades have to be closed by turning the aperture or preset dial on the lens, and again a plain adapter can be used. The flanged adapters can cause problems with infinity focussing on some lenses (e.g. Super-Tak 1.4/50) and are only necessary for automatic lenses without an A/M switch (e.g. Helios 44M-4, Tamrons & Domiplan). And I'm never sure whether the lens is screwed in fully against the mounting face, or whether the pin is being pushed in all the way.

I hope this helps you with your 60D too! Smile


PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Canon 60D and manual lenses Reply with quote
visualopsins wrote:
Welcome nightfly!

Thanks a lot!


visualopsins wrote:
+1 for using Manual mode Smile

Yes, manual mode is a solution but I prefer using aperture mode most of the time.


visualopsins wrote:
nightfly wrote:
[...]- set camera to desired aperture, lens wide open
- meter and lock exposure
- set lens to desired aperture (same as on camera earlier)
- shoot [...]

I'm not familiar with this chip. I'm pretty sure metering needs done with lens set to desired aperture, not wide open. If shutter is pressed half-way and exposure lock button pressed, settings should be locked as long as shutter button is kept depressed halfway.

With the adapters I use, metering works exactly as I described. I do get the exposure I want, no problem with that.
Locking exposure and keeping the shutter button half-pressed does indeed keep the exposure. The "problem" arises first if I don't hold the shutter button. Then the viewfinder info disappears and whatever I do next, the camera re-meters.
I am getting used to keeping the shutter button half-pressed. It works, I just think it's inconvenient. And I really don't get why the viewfinder info can last only 4 seconds. It should be customizable, alas, it's not.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
peterqd wrote:
I think we need to be careful what camera model we are speaking about. Canon models seem to have different metering characteristics, and unless any of us is familiar with many of them we can't assume that our own method will work for everyone. Certainly, I don't know anything about the 60D.

I agree. The 60D is apparently different in how and when it meters.

peterqd wrote:
My 400D is very simple, thankfully. It meters perfectly in Av mode with any lenses, even with a non-chipped adapter, and adjusts the shutter speed according to the light entering the camera. I don't need to set the widest aperture value in the camera or lock the exposure. Of course it's easier to focus wide open and then stop the lens down before metering and shooting.

With the "automatic" type of M42 lenses (with the auto pin and an Auto/Manual switch) you can set the aperture on the lens and with a plain adapter (without the flange that depresses the auto pin) the blades will stay open until the Auto/Manual switch is set on Manual. For non-automatic lenses and presets, the blades have to be closed by turning the aperture or preset dial on the lens, and again a plain adapter can be used. The flanged adapters can cause problems with infinity focussing on some lenses (e.g. Super-Tak 1.4/50) and are only necessary for automatic lenses without an A/M switch (e.g. Helios 44M-4, Tamrons & Domiplan). And I'm never sure whether the lens is screwed in fully against the mounting face, or whether the pin is being pushed in all the way.

I hope this helps you with your 60D too! Smile

I have a Super-Tak 50/2 and two Meyer zebras and I know how to operate them. Of course, you couldn't know that (I've only just edited my signature), so thanks a lot for the explanation!
The "Big-is" adapters I use are flanged ones, even though I wouldn't necessarily need those for the zebras. I'm sure there are other adapters that work just as well. What I like about them is that they are programmable and provide EXIF-data.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm still not sure why you are setting the aperture on the camera AND the lens, is it to ensure you have the correct exif data for your shot? It just seems that you are more likely to get a bad exposure if the lighting changes that way.

How do you find the 60D by the way? Personally I love shooting with it for wildlife and sports and the screen is fantastic...it really put's my 5D's to shame Laughing


PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ManualFocus-G wrote:
How do you find the 60D by the way? Personally I love shooting with it for wildlife and sports and the screen is fantastic...it really put's my 5D's to shame Laughing


Huh. If I might interject for a moment: What is the 5D's screen darker? I've only looked through a 5D once and that was about a year and a half ago. I just remember it feeling quite comfortable to have such a large image area compared to my XS's squinty little one.

A couple days ago I was at a store and they had a 60D on display. I was curious how much bigger the viewfinder display was in the 60D compared to my XS (1000D). They also had a T2i. Well, I figured the T2i's viewfinder frame is probably the same as my XS's, since they are both in the same general class of cameras, ie, Rebels. At first I just tried looking through the 60D's and then through the T2i's. Honestly it was hard to tell much of a difference. So I figured out a way to compare the size of the viewfinder frames between the two cameras. I held them away from my face a few inches and then, looking into the vfs, aligned the frame edges against external objects in my field of view.

I was rather surprised to find out that, while the 60Ds frame display is bigger, it isn't that much bigger. Maybe on the order of 15% or so? I guess this increase is enough to make a difference, though, but it would be nice if it were more. However, the 60D has one thing that I really, really like, and that's it's articulated LCD display. Which kinda makes up for any viewfinder shortcomings, to be honest.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ManualFocus-G wrote:
I'm still not sure why you are setting the aperture on the camera AND the lens, is it to ensure you have the correct exif data for your shot?

Yes. In order to get both correct EXIF data and correct exposure I have to follow the process as I described.

ManualFocus-G wrote:
It just seems that you are more likely to get a bad exposure if the lighting changes that way.

When you have locked the exposure, any change of lighting will have the same impact on your picture, no matter what you did before AE lock.

ManualFocus-G wrote:
How do you find the 60D by the way? Personally I love shooting with it for wildlife and sports and the screen is fantastic...it really put's my 5D's to shame Laughing

Sports aside, which I don't do, I use mine for general shooting from landscape to close-up/macro. And I like it quite a lot. If I had to find something to whinge about I'd say that menu control (top and rear wheel) is inconsistent, I'd like some more customizability, and the position of the DOF preview button is probably the worst they could find on the entire frickin' body Very Happy.
Besides that I think it's great. It fits my hands very well, and is fast enough for my needs. The screen is brilliant and the image quality needs no discussing.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
cooltouch wrote:
ManualFocus-G wrote:
How do you find the 60D by the way? Personally I love shooting with it for wildlife and sports and the screen is fantastic...it really put's my 5D's to shame Laughing


Huh. If I might interject for a moment: What is the 5D's screen darker? I've only looked through a 5D once and that was about a year and a half ago. I just remember it feeling quite comfortable to have such a large image area compared to my XS's squinty little one.

I am only guessing now but I think Graham is talking about how size and resolution of the LCDs compare.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
nightfly wrote:
cooltouch wrote:
ManualFocus-G wrote:
How do you find the 60D by the way? Personally I love shooting with it for wildlife and sports and the screen is fantastic...it really put's my 5D's to shame Laughing


Huh. If I might interject for a moment: What is the 5D's screen darker? I've only looked through a 5D once and that was about a year and a half ago. I just remember it feeling quite comfortable to have such a large image area compared to my XS's squinty little one.

I am only guessing now but I think Graham is talking about how size and resolution of the LCDs compare.


Thanks Andreas, it is the LCD I am referring to Smile Saying that, in general use I find the 60D's viewfinder to be much easier on the eye than that of the 1000D (which I mostly use for product shots in liveview mode).

My 5D has a darker viewfinder as I have the matte EE-S screen installed for realistic depth of field. The LCD is terrible due to the low resolution Shocked


PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Damn, I had the same problem too with 60D.
Few days ago I went to Singapore and brought my new 60D (I sold my 550D). I brought MF Nikon 24/2 Ais and CZJ 135/3.5 MC.

The problem is exactly like that.
If I set lens aperture wide open (the aperture value in the camera is fixed to 2.0, using af-chip) the metering is OK and normal.
But if I stop down, for example to f/4 or f/5.6, the metering is a disaster! It always overexposes!

But if using live-view, the metering is normal. In all aperture the exposure is the same.

What the hell happened with 60D metering?? I have no problem before with my 5D, 5DII and 550D.
I hope Canon future camera wont behave like this 60D.


This is the Av exposure result using Nikon 24mm at f/2




This is the Av exposure result using Nikon 24mm at f/5.6



PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
My XS/1000D has exactly the same problem with its meter. It doesn't behave consistently from one MF lens to the next, either. So I have to try each one separately before getting any serious kind of work done with it.

I suppose if I started buying chipped adapters this would help some. I'm too cheap to do that right now, though.


PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
And below is the exposure using live-view

At f/2


At f/5.6


PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I hope this is not a bad sign that Canon 'does not like' us using manual lens in their future camera so they screw-up the metering. I hope I am wrong Smile


PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
cooltouch wrote:
My XS/1000D has exactly the same problem with its meter. It doesn't behave consistently from one MF lens to the next, either. So I have to try each one separately before getting any serious kind of work done with it.

I suppose if I started buying chipped adapters this would help some. I'm too cheap to do that right now, though.


The behaviour is the metering will overexposed if we stop down the aperture. So, I have to use to remember to set the exposure compensation down, if I stop down the aperture.


PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, but with some lenses I have to add more minus EV than others. With the worst, even a full minus 2 EV isn't enough, and I have to switch to manual. Or Live View (if possible). It's no surprise that a Canon DSLR with LV meters a scene properly when it's being used. Because the mirror is up, the metering sensor and its circuitry is out of play, so the camera must meter directly off the main sensor. If you notice, when you zoom in to the 5x or 10x setting, the camera's meter will readjust to this cropped light level. So when I use LV, unless I'm after the metering for that cropped area, I will compose at 5x or 10x and then go back out to full view to take the shot.

This isn't anything sinister on Canon's part regarding the use of MF lenses. It's been a while since I've read an explanation about this, but what Canon does is rely on data being input to the camera by the lens in order to complete the metering routine. You know, some Nikon DSLRs won't meter at all with MF lenses. At least Canon DSLRs will, we just have to deal with their peculiarities is all.


PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
cooltouch wrote:
Yes, but with some lenses I have to add more minus EV than others. With the worst, even a full minus 2 EV isn't enough, and I have to switch to manual. Or Live View (if possible). It's no surprise that a Canon DSLR with LV meters a scene properly when it's being used. Because the mirror is up, the metering sensor and its circuitry is out of play, so the camera must meter directly off the main sensor. If you notice, when you zoom in to the 5x or 10x setting, the camera's meter will readjust to this cropped light level. So when I use LV, unless I'm after the metering for that cropped area, I will compose at 5x or 10x and then go back out to full view to take the shot.

This isn't anything sinister on Canon's part regarding the use of MF lenses. It's been a while since I've read an explanation about this, but what Canon does is rely on data being input to the camera by the lens in order to complete the metering routine. You know, some Nikon DSLRs won't meter at all with MF lenses. At least Canon DSLRs will, we just have to deal with their peculiarities is all.


Thanks for sharing the info. Especially about partial metering on live-view mode if we zoom it. I didn't realize it before Smile

By the way I haven't tried using the non-chipped MF lenses. It has the same behaviour, does it?


PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
All of the MF lenses I use with my Canon DSLR use adapters that do not have chips. It is my understanding that a chipped adapter will let the camera meter a scene properly as long as the chip has been programmed properly for the lens being used. But I don't have any direct, first-hand information about this. Somebody here should be able to address this, though.
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