Help requested: Leica or Zeiss?

[dude163]

Hi all

I know this is an age old topic but I am looking for some assistance/advice


Im selling off a lot of my junk or unused gear ( not just photo) to generate some extra cash , so soon I can buy a new camera body , and perhaps some different lenses.
My ultimate dream would be to get a Leica digital camera, but I believe the M8 is a crop and m9 is full frame ( but 8000 bucks plus lenses) Is the Leica glass really that much better?

I already own the planar zeiss 85/1.4 and 50/1.7 , but they dont work on my preferred pentax KX , so my dilemma is: should I buy a newer EOS or Nikon body and keep the Zeiss lenses, or sell them to get a Leica glass setup in case I can afford a Leica body in the future?

I guess what Im trying to say is , I want to do more photography and less collecting, so I want to trim it down to a body or 2 and a few lenses that I would use in addition to my KX which is great for low light work and I want to keep

Merry xmas by the way! and thanks in advance for any help

[cooltouch]

This sort of thing I think ultimately revolves around personal preference more than anything else. So any advice you receive will most likely be expressions of personal preference, and then you'll have to add your own personal preferences to the mix as well.

It seems you're considering buying Leica glass first, and then you'll get the M9 or whatever when your budget will allow for it. To me this would be a frustrating experience because I'll have a set of lenses that I can't use until I can afford the camera.

A question I have asked myself in the past when it comes to the ownership of Leitz gear is, is it really worth the huge premium one has to pay to buy into the system? So far, my answer has been "no." I've owned a few Leitz pieces, but I've just never been able to justify expanding the size of my collection at the prices one typically has to pay. But that was in the days of film and with premium digital gear it's a brave new world.

Yes. In the digital world, the differences have narrowed -- at least when it comes to prices. The M9 is a pro-quality full-frame digital camera, as is the Canon 1DS Mark III and the Nikon D3x. And these three cameras are priced within the ballpark of each other. And when you think about how expensive the M-system lenses are, if you begin to compare them with the premium lenses in both Canon's and Nikon's lines, then the price differences begin to shrink there too. So, I reiterate, it is gonna come down to personal preference.

Things like the layout of controls, the way the camera feels in your hands, menu readouts, even the way the included software operates -- all this can really matter, so it makes a great deal of sense to investigae each system to the fullest extent possible. Because whichever one you go with, you'll want to be comfortable using it.

My personal preference happens to be Canon. And since I'm already invested in the system, it makes a certain amount of sense to stay with it. But my total investment in Canon is less than the cost of a good premium lens, so the decision can't be based entirely on dollar amounts. The layout of controls, build quality of the cameras and lenses, etc., all are important.

I too prefer full frame, but rather than springing for a 1DSIII right off, I would most likely get the 5D II instead -- in fact, that is my specific plan. Once I have the 5D II, I'll then begin to acquire the premium lenses as I can afford them, and then, sometime later down the road when I can afford it, I'll spring for the 1DSIII. That sort of strategy makes the best sense to me. Unfortunately, Leica does not offer a cheaper FF camera the way Canon and Nikon do. So it's like all or nothing if you decide on going the Leica way.

[RioRico]

If higher resolution is important to you, you might consider a Pentax 645D. Not cheap, but AFAIK it's in a unique slot: much larger images than FF, much less expensive than other MF digital systems. And it can use legacy Pentax MF lenses. Just a thought...

[Seele]

dude163,

Allow me to play the part of the devil's advocate here.

First of all, have you personally used a Leica M8 or M9? Have you seen the resultant pictures first-hand? Only then would you be able to justify the purchase of one, and be committed to the system, as you alone would be able to see if the cost/performance ratio is acceptable.

Leica, like many higher-end manufacturers of every manufactured product, is preceeded by its reputation, and for that they ask for an extra premium. For some, the red dot is worth it regardless of cost - and performance in fact, for there had been some poor products bearing the Leica label over the years. To my mind it would be a bit too foolhardy (or worse) to get rid of everything and then dive in head first into a new system, just to find its cost/performance ratio less favourable.

My advice, if I may, is to get your hands on a M8/M9 and actually try it for a little while, that would enable you to make a wise, informed decision that you will not regret later.

[xjjohnno]

dude163, it's not what you use but how you use it. Skill is always going to over ride expensive kit.

[scsambrook]

Hello dude163 - I think cooltouch makes a lot of sense in his post.

The first and most important consideration is whether your photography will best be served by a reflex or a rangefinder camera - some things the rangefinder design does better than a DSLR, but in other cases the reflex camera winds hands down.

I have a Leica M8 which I think is a wonderful tool, but I also have a DSLR which gets used frequently. Leica lenses are very, very expensive if you buy new ones, but you can get earlier generation ones which are still superb for much more afforable prices. The new Zeiss lenses are reputedly very very good, and the Voigtlander ones are also generally first class. I have three Leica lenses from the 1960s, plus two recent Voigtlander ones, and have no desire to update to new Leica ones.

The M8 is indeed crop frame (1.3x factor) but that's only a problem if you want ultra-wide angles. M8s/M8.2s can now be bought in near mint to mint condition from £1500-£2250 GBP, say $2000-$3000 USD which is a whole lot better value than the cost of an M9. I've been a Leica user for fifty years and think the M8 is a good and highly useful piece of kit.

But ignore the hype and the ravings of people who go on about the "special nature" of Leica M gear. Yes, it's good, but it's no use unless it fits your style of photography

[ManualFocus-G]

Those Contax Zeiss lenses won't work with Nikon I'm afraid, so Canon is your only option there unless you sell them and buy the new Z series lenses (eeep!!)

[poilu]

you will not be able to do your abstract stuff with a rangefinder
try lensbaby, they are available for Canon, Nikon, Sony, Pentax and Olympus 4/3's

[dude163]

Morning all ,

I just woke up , blech


After doing some research lastnight and some thinking as I was trying to sleep , I think my best bet is to do what some have already suggested:

1: My preferred camera is the KX so Ill concentrate on that and continue learning and having fun

2: I have contacted a few places already about RF and M8/M9 cameras, because I agree, I want to try one first and see how it is to shoot with

3:Another option , Leica makes the R series cameras that have lenses that can be used on modern cameras with an adapter , I was thinking about grabbing a 4/3 body, but my KX is already light enough so I can easily get a leitax adapter

4: RFs arent good for macro/abstract , which apart from portraiture is my preferred style, so thats another mark against them

5: I might grab a Leica digilux 2 , they are a bit older , but have a great lens allegedly,and I can always resell it if I dont like it and break even

6: I should spend more time shooting and less time on the internet forums researching this stuff




Thanks for all the advice , I guess my plan of a Leica by 50 isnt looking too good
as where I live there arent any Leica dealers for 1000 kms

keep the comments/advice coming , the more info the better!

[dude163]

[AhamB]

[dude163]

re: Digilux 2 and LC1, I know, but DMC-LC1s rarely show up on Ebay

I found out that the Konica Hexar RF cameras are similar in size to a Leica and also a RF camera, I think i might be able to find one of those cameras easier than a Leica out here , so I can test one out!

[hexi]

Zeiss !

Ok, now i say why : )

Zeiss has the original Planar optical formula, as well as the Tessar one. Planar 6 elements in 4 groups in copied by many actual lens makers, this inlcudes, Canon , Pentax, Nikon, , Leica's Summicron is based on that ( this goes for 50's mainly ) formula too, so

if you can spot a difference and pay 3 times more for a leica branded lens, it's fine, but it's a zeiss actually ; remember this !

[Seele]

hexi,

Certainly Paul Rudolph penned the Planar as a double-gauss lens featuring buried surfaces, turning the inner elements into cemented doublets, it is also fair to say that it was a follow-up of the Alvin C Clark lens made by B&L much earlier. In fact, Rudolph could not get the Planar to work properly: I actually have one of the original examples and its performance is far from outstanding - to put it mildly!

It took some major revisions, like the Zeiss Biotar and Taylor-Hobson's Series 0 (in movie camera form, also known as OPIC) to get this design to work.

[dude163]

Im trying to locate someone/somewhere locally that will let me try/fondle their leica

[Attila]

T*

[cooltouch]

[dude163]

There ya go!

[Darioratti]

I may be slightly off the point.... however I've personally picked up some (very!) good old leica glass and converted it to a canon mount with the Leitax adaptor (childs play).
Found it the best way to keep other EOS mount galss on full frame Canon format; and on the side also kept some change in my pocket.
I find this important because it means I can carry around less wight (i.e. only one camera body) and bleieve me in high mountains on ice your dooing youself a favour.
Furthermore so doing I've also dicovered first hand that Leica has a very good reputation, which I beleive well deserved, however others have similar optical quality with absolutely nothing to eny.

P.S. if this is of any help in lens consideration and subsequent camera body purchase, mf lieca-voigtalnder-canon-zeiss (the later guarantee perfect functioning to -20°C) lenses have never been a problem in extreem temperature conditions in my hands, however a canon 70-200 4f autofocus has).

[dude163]

I got my hands on a Lumix GF2 today, what a neat little camera, and you can get adapters for almost anything, hmmm

re: my T* 's , I want to keep my planar 50/1,7 and also trade or sell my MMG 85 planar , as I really dont want to put a leitax adapter on it, Id rather someone who would keep it *normal* have it, either another photographer or a collector , either or!

[dude163]

has anyone had any experience using the leitax adapters on the KX?