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kawasakiguy37
Joined: 13 Jul 2010 Posts: 132
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Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:43 am Post subject: Just bought bellows - Lens additions? |
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kawasakiguy37 wrote:
I just bought some simple bellows in Nikon mount (the rear) that come with a spiratone 75mm flat field macro. This lense should give me at least 2:1 or 4:1 magnification. What other options do I have for the end of these bellows? Is there anyway to convert them (they are a simple two rail design, no shift/tilt) to have tilt / shift features? Would a medium or large format lens be a good candidate to slap on the end?
Im looking for maximum magnification and macro ability here, or something with really good working distance. |
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lulalake
Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 1191 Location: Near Austin Texas
Expire: 2011-11-18
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Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:49 am Post subject: Re: Just bought bellows - Lens additions? |
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lulalake wrote:
kawasakiguy37 wrote: |
I just bought some simple bellows in Nikon mount (the rear) that come with a spiratone 75mm flat field macro. This lense should give me at least 2:1 or 4:1 magnification. What other options do I have for the end of these bellows? Is there anyway to convert them (they are a simple two rail design, no shift/tilt) to have tilt / shift features? Would a medium or large format lens be a good candidate to slap on the end?
Im looking for maximum magnification and macro ability here, or something with really good working distance. |
I use an M42 Bellows sometimes. Depending on the FL of the lens, yes Medium Format lenses work well, enlarger lenses work well, large format lenses work well.
The ones that fit on mine are 250mm or less due to bellows length (40D).
Jules |
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kawasakiguy37
Joined: 13 Jul 2010 Posts: 132
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Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:31 am Post subject: |
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kawasakiguy37 wrote:
I believe my bellows go out to about 150mm. Does the focal length of the lense affect the magnification at a given extension? |
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RioRico
Joined: 12 Mar 2010 Posts: 1120 Location: California or Guatemala or somewhere
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Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:55 am Post subject: Bellowing, part I |
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RioRico wrote:
kawasakiguy37 wrote: |
I believe my bellows go out to about 150mm. Does the focal length of the lense affect the magnification at a given extension? |
Yes. The formula: Magnification = Extension / Focal Length. With the bellows fully out at 150mm of extension, here are the magnifications you'd get with various lenses:
50mm --- 3:1
75mm --- 2:1
100mm - 1.5:1
150mm - 1:1
225mm - 1:1.5
300mm - 1:2
For more magnification, use shorter lenses. For greater working distance, use longer lenses.
(The above formula uses TOTAL extension. So for 1:1 with a 50mm lens, we assume 50mm of tubes, and the lens itself at infinity focus. Focusing the lens out boosts the magnification just slightly.)
Quote: |
What other options do I have for the end of these bellows? Is there anyway to convert them (they are a simple two rail design, no shift/tilt) to have tilt / shift features? Would a medium or large format lens be a good candidate to slap on the end? |
I've considered building a T/S mechanism. It wouldn't be practical for macro work; it *would* be feasible if mounting a large format (LF) lens for general shooting. But remember, even for infinity focus, a long-lens element needs lots of extension; and short-lens LF glass is costly.
I have M42 and Pentax-mount bellows, both extending to about 150mm. To use a 162mm Wollensak enlarging lens (EL), I need tubes also -- a minimum of 20mm for infinity focus, and an entire 160mm+ to reach 1:1. Even my Ilex 140mm EL pushes the limit, needing tubes on both sides of the bellows. And those lenses weigh 300g and 260g respectively, rather a bit of weight to be hanging at the end of 300mm+ of hardware.
In the next post I'll suggest other ways to use a bellows. _________________ Too many film+digi cams+lenses, oh my -- Pentax K20D, K-1000, M42s, more
The simple truth is this: There are no neutral photographs. --F-Stop Fitzgerald
Last edited by RioRico on Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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patrickh
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 Posts: 8551 Location: Oregon
Expire: 2011-11-18
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Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:16 am Post subject: |
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patrickh wrote:
I find the best value is definitely in the enlarging lenses. Really fine qulaity can be obtained for well under $100 - look for el-nikkor, Schneider componon - S and rodenstock rodagon. They come typically from 50 - 150mm. I have a couple of active threads with samples from a few of these lenses
patrickh _________________ DSLR: Nikon D300 Nikon D200 Nex 5N
MF Zooms: Kiron 28-85/3.5, 28-105/3.2, 75-150/3.5, Nikkor 50-135/3.5 AIS // MF Primes: Nikkor 20/4 AI, 24/2 AI, 28/2 AI, 28/2.8 AIS, 28/3.5 AI, 35/1.4 AIS, 35/2 AIS, 35/2.8 PC, 45/2.8 P, 50/1.4 AIS, 50/1.8 AIS, 50/2 AI, 55/2.8 AIS micro, 55/3.5 AI micro, 85/2 AI, 100/2,8 E, 105/1,8 AIS, 105/2,5 AIS, 135/2 AIS, 135/2.8 AIS, 200/4 AI, 200/4 AIS micro, 300/4.5 AI, 300/4.5 AI ED, Arsat 50/1.4, Kiron 28/2, Vivitar 28/2.5, Panagor 135/2.8, Tamron 28/2.5, Tamron 90/2.5 macro, Vivitar 90/2.5 macro (Tokina) Voigtlander 90/3.5 Vivitar 105/2.5 macro (Kiron) Kaleinar 100/2.8 AI Tamron 135/2.5, Vivitar 135/2.8CF, 200/3.5, Tokina 400/5,6
M42: Vivitar 28/2.5, Tamron 28/2.5, Formula5 28/2.8, Mamiya 28/2.8, Pentacon 29/2.8, Flektogon 35/2.4, Flektogon 35/2.8, Takumar 35/3.5, Curtagon 35/4, Takumar 50/1.4, Volna-6 50/2.8 macro, Mamiya 50/1.4, CZJ Pancolar 50/1,8, Oreston 50/1.8, Takumar 50/2, Industar 50/3.5, Sears 55/1.4, Helios 58/2, Jupiter 85/2, Helios 85/1.5, Takumar 105/2.8, Steinheil macro 105/4.5, Tamron 135/2.5, Jupiter 135/4, CZ 135/4, Steinheil Culminar 135/4,5, Jupiter 135/3.5, Takumar 135/3.5, Tair 135/2.8, Pentacon 135/2.8, CZ 135/2.8, Taika 135/3.5, Takumar 150/4, Jupiter 200/4, Takumar 200/4
Exakta: Topcon 100/2.8(M42), 35/2.8, 58/1.8, 135/2.8, 135/2.8 (M42), Kyoei Acall 135/3.5
C/Y: Yashica 28/2.8, 50/1.7, 135/2.8, Zeiss Planar 50/1.4, Distagon 25/2.8
Hexanon: 28/3.5, 35/2.8, 40/1.8, 50/1.7, 52/1.8, 135/3.2, 135/3.5, 35-70/3.5, 200/3.5
P6 : Mir 38 65/3.5, Biometar 80/2.8, Kaleinar 150/2.8, Sonnar 180/2.8
Minolta SR: 28/2.8, 28/3.5, 35/2.8, 45/2, 50/2, 58/1.4, 50/1.7, 135/2.8, 200/3.5
RF: Industar 53/2.8, Jupiter 8 50/2
Enlarg: Rodagon 50/5,6, 80/5,6, 105/5.6, Vario 44-52/4, 150/5.6 180/5.6 El Nikkor 50/2,8,63/2.8,75/4, 80/5,6, 105/5.6, 135/5.6 Schneider 60/5.6, 80/5.6, 80/4S,100/5.6S,105/5.6,135/5.6, 135/5.6S, 150/5.6S, Leica 95/4 |
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kawasakiguy37
Joined: 13 Jul 2010 Posts: 132
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Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:46 am Post subject: |
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kawasakiguy37 wrote:
So it doesnt matter how close the lense I mount on the bellows can focus? (as in it wont matter if I stick a macro or normal lens?) |
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RioRico
Joined: 12 Mar 2010 Posts: 1120 Location: California or Guatemala or somewhere
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Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:50 am Post subject: Bellowing, part II |
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RioRico wrote:
Enlarger lenses (EL's) are great for tube/bellows macro work -- cheap, light, cheap, sharp, cheap. Did I mention that they're cheap? But they're also limited by the amount of extension you're comfortable with. I use various EL glass in the 50-75-90-110-140mm range, all quality stuff that mostly cost less than US$15 each. But like I said, that Ilex 140 pushes the limit.
You can also use standard lenses on bellows. An M42 135mm Takumar on the bellows easily reaches 1:1 without additional tubes. Essentially, the lens body IS the supplemental tube. Back in the day, with my 35mm half-frame Olympus Pen-FT SLR, I'd mount a 400mm tele on bellows and tubes, supported by a shoulder stock, to shoot closeups of rattlesnakes in the wild from a safe distance. Any tele on extensions gives plenty of working range.
Some lenses work fine mounted directly; others perform better when reversed. A cheap mount-reversal ring lets you use lenses FROM ANY MAKER. But your working range is small, approaching a lens' register distance. For most SLR lenses, that's close to 50mm. Long-tube type teles don't reverse well, as they have no optics at their base. Large- and medium-format lenses tend to be heavy, but they would have greater working range when reversed. I haven't tried that yet. Hmmm, maybe if I pulled the 120mm Zeiss lens and shutter from that old Ikonta 6x9 folder...
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
I also haven't tried high-magnification stacked lenses mounted onto extensions. And I really haven't done much with high magnifications. The problem: light, or lack thereof. Light loss is given by the formula: Effective Aperture = Nominal Aperture * (Magnification + 1)
So any lens at 1:1 with its aperture ring set to a nominal value of f/8, will have an effective aperture of 8 * (1+1) = f/16. At 2:1, it's (8 * (2+1) = f/24. If I reached 7:1, it's f/64 -- hey, we're in Ansel Adams territory! Light-wise, anyway. That's six full f-stops down from f/8. Drop the shutter speed from 1/125 to 1/2 second, eh?
Needless to say, focus and illumination are difficult at great magnification, especially with bellows and tubes. High magnification is usually achieved by stacking lenses, reversing a secondary onto a primary with a cheap thread-reversal ring. Magnification is the ratio of primary to secondary; a 35mm secondary reverse-stacked onto a 105mm primary gives 105/35 = 3:1, with a 4 f-stop loss of light. Mounting a stacked pair on bellows should make focusing a bit easier, however.
Search around, and you'll find lots of material about bellows work. Have fun! _________________ Too many film+digi cams+lenses, oh my -- Pentax K20D, K-1000, M42s, more
The simple truth is this: There are no neutral photographs. --F-Stop Fitzgerald |
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RioRico
Joined: 12 Mar 2010 Posts: 1120 Location: California or Guatemala or somewhere
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Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:10 am Post subject: |
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RioRico wrote:
kawasakiguy37 wrote: |
So it doesnt matter how close the lense I mount on the bellows can focus? (as in it wont matter if I stick a macro or normal lens?) |
No, it doesn't matter. You control the focus by varying the bellows' extension. With a macro lens mounted directly on a camera, twisting the lens body increases the extension. With a 'normal' or enlarger lens on bellows, you focus with the bellows. With any lens, the further you move the objective from the film/sensor plane, the closer the focus, and the greater the magnification and light loss.
Macro lens; 'normal' lens; enlarger lens; stacked lenses; any and all can be mounted on the bellows, and bellows adjustments control the focus point and magnification. A 'normal' 135mm lens with a usual close-focus of 3.3m / 10 feet can focus to within an inch or so, if extended enough.
[CORRECTION: A 135mm lens CANNOT focus to within an inch. No unreversed lens can focus closer than its focal length. Sorry about that.]
(Other stuff can be put on bellows too. ANY optical materials: eyeglass and magnifying and headlight lenses, faceted crystals, thin Fresnel lenses, prisms and kaleidoscopes, etc. Results can be... interesting...)
patrickh wrote: |
I find the best value is definitely in the enlarging lenses. |
Agreed, they give the best value. For close work, more often on tubes than bellows, I have a favorite 'standard' lens: the venerable Industar-50/3.5, still available for ~US$25. It's not flat-field like an enlarger lens, but it's apochromatic, highly color-corrected. It's about the size of many enlarger lenses but it's already at 50mm, so less extension is needed to achieve 1:1 or more. On the 150mm bellows I can reach 4:1. Whew! _________________ Too many film+digi cams+lenses, oh my -- Pentax K20D, K-1000, M42s, more
The simple truth is this: There are no neutral photographs. --F-Stop Fitzgerald
Last edited by RioRico on Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kawasakiguy37
Joined: 13 Jul 2010 Posts: 132
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Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:40 am Post subject: |
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kawasakiguy37 wrote:
Perhaps I will just stick tothe spiratone 75mm for now and try some of my nikkor AI-S lenses on the bellows and see how I like them. Should give me enough combinations between working distance / magnification to get what I want _________________ Nikkor
75-150 series E
105 2.0 DC
28 2.0 AIS
T-mount bellows + Spiratone 75mm Flat Field macro
300 4.0 CZJ F |
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Krisgage
Joined: 16 Mar 2009 Posts: 681 Location: Singapore
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Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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Krisgage wrote:
As for me, I put enlarger lens, LF brass lens, LF lens and folding camera lens. There is alot to play with bellows. Have fun discovering ! _________________ Photos and Lenses Journal
http://krisgage.livejournal.com |
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kawasakiguy37
Joined: 13 Jul 2010 Posts: 132
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Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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kawasakiguy37 wrote:
Would it be possible to mount an old Perspective control lens? For macro work I eventually want to be able to control the plane / depth of field. _________________ Nikkor
75-150 series E
105 2.0 DC
28 2.0 AIS
T-mount bellows + Spiratone 75mm Flat Field macro
300 4.0 CZJ F |
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Arninetyes
Joined: 24 Jun 2010 Posts: 312 Location: SoCal
Expire: 2013-03-26
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Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:11 am Post subject: |
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Arninetyes wrote:
I would think the answer would be 'yes', but remember that the bellows mount itself, even fully collapsed, will be part of the extension. It will affect how close you must be in order to focus.
I never thought about using a PC lens on my bellows, because it already has limited tilt/shift. It would be an interesting experiment, especially figuring out the best way to combine the tilt/shift of the bellows with the shift (and tilt, if it has it) of the PC lens.
Hmmm. I may have to start looking for an affordable PC lens. _________________ The longer I use autofocus lenses,
The greater my preference for manual focus grows. |
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kawasakiguy37
Joined: 13 Jul 2010 Posts: 132
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Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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kawasakiguy37 wrote:
I think Im just going to use these bellows for now and pickup some T/S compatible bellows later, seems to be my best option! Once I do that might as well get a LF lense too for the larger image circle!! _________________ Nikkor
75-150 series E
105 2.0 DC
28 2.0 AIS
T-mount bellows + Spiratone 75mm Flat Field macro
300 4.0 CZJ F |
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PaulC
Joined: 23 Dec 2008 Posts: 2318
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Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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PaulC wrote:
How do you mount these odd lenses on the bellows? I've got a set that came with an M42 ring. I'd love to mount interesting oddball stuff on the end of it but I'm not sure how to fix it in place (I'm not very practical that way). _________________ View or buy my photos at:
http://shutterstock.com/g/paulcowan |
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57865 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
patrickh wrote: |
I find the best value is definitely in the enlarging lenses. Really fine qulaity can be obtained for well under $100 - look for el-nikkor, Schneider componon - S and rodenstock rodagon. They come typically from 50 - 150mm. I have a couple of active threads with samples from a few of these lenses
patrickh |
+1 _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57865 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
PaulC wrote: |
How do you mount these odd lenses on the bellows? I've got a set that came with an M42 ring. I'd love to mount interesting oddball stuff on the end of it but I'm not sure how to fix it in place (I'm not very practical that way). |
plastic glued tape and hold the lens while shooting _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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PaulC
Joined: 23 Dec 2008 Posts: 2318
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Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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PaulC wrote:
Attila wrote: |
PaulC wrote: |
How do you mount these odd lenses on the bellows? I've got a set that came with an M42 ring. I'd love to mount interesting oddball stuff on the end of it but I'm not sure how to fix it in place (I'm not very practical that way). |
plastic glued tape and hold the lens while shooting |
LOL, and there I was thinking of parts being machined to exact tolerances! _________________ View or buy my photos at:
http://shutterstock.com/g/paulcowan |
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57865 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
PaulC wrote: |
Attila wrote: |
PaulC wrote: |
How do you mount these odd lenses on the bellows? I've got a set that came with an M42 ring. I'd love to mount interesting oddball stuff on the end of it but I'm not sure how to fix it in place (I'm not very practical that way). |
plastic glued tape and hold the lens while shooting |
LOL, and there I was thinking of parts being machined to exact tolerances! |
I am one step behind Stan (Trifox) who is just keep lenses before the camera _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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gcrimmins
Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Posts: 146 Location: Moscow, Idaho, USA
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Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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gcrimmins wrote:
I have an APO Rodagon-D enlarging lens that works extremely well on bellows. It's either 70mm of 75mm, I can never remember which. |
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RioRico
Joined: 12 Mar 2010 Posts: 1120 Location: California or Guatemala or somewhere
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:42 am Post subject: |
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RioRico wrote:
Attila wrote: |
PaulC wrote: |
How do you mount these odd lenses on the bellows? |
plastic glued tape and hold the lens while shooting |
That's one way. I have a Pentax K20D and use both PK-mount and M42 bellows and cheap extra macro tubes; the PK tubes have an inner diameter of 57mm. Sometimes I jam a lens into one of the tube sections, tape it in place, and use that as the lens mount. Some odd-shaped stuff (eyeglass lenses, etc) need a cardboard+tape mask put around them in the tube section. Some lenses with fairly standard threads can be set onto mount-reversal rings, possibly with step-up or step-down adapter rings. A plastic Fresnel lens can just be cut to fit in a filter ring with a mount-reverse ring; odd plastic eyeglass lenses can be cut into circles also. _________________ Too many film+digi cams+lenses, oh my -- Pentax K20D, K-1000, M42s, more
The simple truth is this: There are no neutral photographs. --F-Stop Fitzgerald |
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AhamB
Joined: 22 Jun 2008 Posts: 733 Location: Germany
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:29 am Post subject: |
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AhamB wrote:
kawasakiguy37 wrote: |
Would it be possible to mount an old Perspective control lens? For macro work I eventually want to be able to control the plane / depth of field. |
Old Nikkor PC-lenses only offer shift, no tilt. So no control depth of field. I'd say perspective control is of little use in macro applications.
An enlarger or LF lens on T/S bellows is another story of course, because you could have infinity focus, but only with longer focal lengths (>80mm probably). |
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Orlie
Joined: 07 Dec 2009 Posts: 4 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:47 am Post subject: |
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Orlie wrote:
I use enlarging lenses and find they are very sharp and very easy to get and very inexpensive.
I look for lenses that have a M39 mount and six elements. As previously mentioned a few of the big names for quality enlarging lenses are Nikon, Schneider and Fuji. Note, that they lens companies also have less expensive 4 element lenses. Below is a listing of lenses that I have used and enjoy.
https://sites.google.com/site/inexpensivemacrophotography/6-enlarging-lenses. |
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cooltouch
Joined: 15 Jan 2009 Posts: 9096 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:53 am Post subject: |
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cooltouch wrote:
Hey Kawasakiguy -- Couple of q's / comments:
First off, have you tried out that Spiratone lens yet? Chances are it's pretty nice, and may be all you need for now. How about your other AIs lenses?
About perspective-control bellows, I know of only two: the Nikon PB-4 and the Spiratone Bellows Master, which apparently was made by Hama:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/edgehill/4068953692/
There may be others, but of the above two the Spiratone is far more useful for true Scheimphflug movements. The Nikon PB-4 usually goes for a pretty good chunk of change on eBay, and the Spiratone Bellows Master, when it appears on eBay, which isn't very often, also goes for a lot of $$$.
Also, as you probably know you can get great magnification by just reversing wide angle lenses. Imagine what it would be like with a reversed lens mounted to a set of bellows.
Finally, I have found that a very handy accessory to have when doing high-magnification photography is a macro focusing stage that allows both forward-rear and side-to-side adjustments. Some bellows allow forward-rear adjustments of both the camera and lens end after mounting to a tripod, but I don't know of any that allow side-to-side. And trying to reposition your tripod at very high magnifications can be a real PITA. So this is an accessory you might want to consider. I bought one of these over three weeks ago, and it still hasn't arrived yet. Must be on the slow boat from China.
Click here to see on Ebay _________________ Michael
My Gear List: http://michaelmcbroom.com/photo/gear.html
My Gallery: http://michaelmcbroom.com/gallery3/index.php/
My Flickr Page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/11308754@N08/albums
My Music: https://soundcloud.com/michaelmcbroom/albums
My Blog: http://michaelmcbroom.com/blogistan/ |
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kawasakiguy37
Joined: 13 Jul 2010 Posts: 132
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Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:49 am Post subject: |
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kawasakiguy37 wrote:
That focusing stage looks real nice, I wonder how it would work for video?
Tell me what you think when it arrives, it looks really useful _________________ Nikkor
75-150 series E
105 2.0 DC
28 2.0 AIS
T-mount bellows + Spiratone 75mm Flat Field macro
300 4.0 CZJ F |
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