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poilu
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 Posts: 10472 Location: Greece
Expire: 2019-08-29
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Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:01 pm Post subject: raw hardware artifacts from RGGB |
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poilu wrote:
I have some strange artifacts with 5DII
I try Bibble, C1, ACDsee, Breeze, pp with 0 sharpening and all give those jigged line & artifacts
I believe that the raw get hardware sharpening that it is not possible to avoid
100% crop, 0 sharpening, look over the eye, like already sharpened
contax 35-70, 200 iso
-------------------------------
edit: I found a solution, scroll down to read it _________________ T*
Last edited by poilu on Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Olivier
Joined: 18 Feb 2009 Posts: 5080 Location: France
Expire: 2015-08-06
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Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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Olivier wrote:
and with DPP 3.8 ?
Do you have the same artifacts ? _________________ Olivier - Moderator
Dslr : Olympus Pen E-P2 - Fujifilm X-Pro2 - Canon 5D MkII.
SLr and MF lenses : for feedback and helping people, cameras and lenses I own : full list here http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic,p,1442740.html#1442740 |
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n6mod
Joined: 20 Oct 2008 Posts: 134 Location: Boulder Creek, CA, USA
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Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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n6mod wrote:
Those don't look like sharpening artifacts as much as just aliasing. It looks like the 5DII has a weak AA filter, which I'd say is a good thing.
I'd try RPP (if you have access to a Mac) or dcraw, but I don't think that's sharpening. |
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poilu
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 Posts: 10472 Location: Greece
Expire: 2019-08-29
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Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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poilu wrote:
Olivier wrote: |
and with DPP 3.8 ?
Do you have the same artifacts ? |
BreezeBrowser use Canon algo and have the same artifacts
n6mod wrote: |
Those don't look like sharpening artifacts as much as just aliasing. It looks like the 5DII has a weak AA filter, which I'd say is a good thing.
I'd try RPP (if you have access to a Mac) or dcraw, but I don't think that's sharpening |
I tried raw therapee who use dcraw and got same artifacts
I guess the AA filter is weak, all my lenses are very sharp at 100% _________________ T* |
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no-X
Joined: 19 Jul 2008 Posts: 2495 Location: Budejky, Czech Republic
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Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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no-X wrote:
I believe there is applied some sharpening after (or during) the debayering process. Bayer mask consists of 25% blue, 25% red and 50% green, so the channels have different level of sharpness, which is probably corrected in some way... _________________ (almost) complete list of Helios lenses |
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n6mod
Joined: 20 Oct 2008 Posts: 134 Location: Boulder Creek, CA, USA
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Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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n6mod wrote:
[quote="no-X" so the channels have different level of sharpness, which is probably corrected in some way...[/quote]
Well, there's interpolation going on, and this is deeply related to the sort of aliasing you see. It's not *sharpening* per se.
Certainly these effects will disappear if you avoid interpolation by using the -h option to dcraw (or RPP's "half" mode), which averages the two green sensels and presents a group of four sensels as a single pixel.
And we're dangerously close to awakening the Foveon enthusiasts... |
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poilu
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 Posts: 10472 Location: Greece
Expire: 2019-08-29
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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:08 am Post subject: |
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poilu wrote:
n6mod wrote: |
Certainly these effects will disappear if you avoid interpolation by using the -h option to dcraw |
the -h option give the same result as resizing full image
left dcraw -h ... right C1 sized 50% nearest neighbor
as green channel seems affected, it can be result of bayer interpolation
I can live with some artifacts, I just hope Canon will not follow Sony way and alter raw with hardware denoising for marketing
left parrot 100% no sharpening, no problem
_________________ T* |
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n6mod
Joined: 20 Oct 2008 Posts: 134 Location: Boulder Creek, CA, USA
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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:06 am Post subject: |
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n6mod wrote:
poilu wrote: |
as green channel seems affected, it can be result of bayer interpolation
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There's no interpolation with -h, just averaging the two values.
poilu wrote: |
left parrot 100% no sharpening, no problem
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But that's a monochrome target, basically.
Seems I was wrong that the artifacts went away with -h, in fact they moved around. I think that's still consistent with aliasing (fine detail at pixel scale).
I'll say this. That's one heck of a lens to expose aliasing on a 5DII! |
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Anu
Joined: 14 Apr 2009 Posts: 879
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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:16 am Post subject: Re: raw hardware sharpening artifacts |
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Anu wrote:
poilu wrote: |
I have some strange artifacts with 5DII
I try Bibble, C1, ACDsee, Breeze, pp with 0 sharpening and all give those jigged line & artifacts
I believe that the raw get hardware sharpening that it is not possible to avoid
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No, there is no hardware sharpening, just a weak AA-filter and a sharp lens. You may be able to ease this problem by using a worse lens Or maybe add some grease to the front (or even rear) element
This image of a parrot has clear problems induced by a bad demosaicing process, ugly artifacts. Even though Lightroom 1.4's (which is at the moment the tool I use) demosaicing is not that good in general, I've never seen anything like the ugliness in some of the feathers (and Pentax K20D also has rather weak AA-filter - aliasing is occasionally seen). |
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poilu
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 Posts: 10472 Location: Greece
Expire: 2019-08-29
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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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poilu wrote:
I guess I have to put some grease to my lens
I found the solution with dcraw with parameter -f : Interpolate RGGB as four colors
so the problem occur with mixing of the 2 Greens in RGGB matrices
dcraw left with -f , right normal
--- edit ----
but the -f kill resolution
the sensor data with dcraw -D show that the jigged lines are already there
look like a aliasing problem from sharp Zeiss lens
in those condition, the normal dcraw output made a better job than capture one
_________________ T*
Last edited by poilu on Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Arkku
Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1416 Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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Arkku wrote:
poilu wrote: |
I found the solution with dcraw with parameter -f : Interpolate RGGB as four colors |
Would it be possible for you to post the raw file somewhere? A file known to be problematic with most converters would be an interesting way to test the behaviour of different utilities. |
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poilu
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 Posts: 10472 Location: Greece
Expire: 2019-08-29
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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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poilu wrote:
Arkku wrote: |
Would it be possible for you to post the raw file somewhere? |
http://rapidshare.com/files/367267231/parrot.CR2
if you find a different behavior with your raw converter, share it here _________________ T* |
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Arkku
Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1416 Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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Arkku wrote:
Thanks, and I will, although I'm waiting to upgrade my computer in the next few weeks/months, and don't have many different converters installed on my current one. |
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Olivier
Joined: 18 Feb 2009 Posts: 5080 Location: France
Expire: 2015-08-06
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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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Olivier wrote:
I noticed your firmware is 2.03.
Try with the new one ?
Do you shoot in sRVB ?
I tried in DPP 3.8 and worked only on the luminance noise reduction. I set it to 6 which is a lot.
Here are the results. I don't know wether it's better or not :
_________________ Olivier - Moderator
Dslr : Olympus Pen E-P2 - Fujifilm X-Pro2 - Canon 5D MkII.
SLr and MF lenses : for feedback and helping people, cameras and lenses I own : full list here http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic,p,1442740.html#1442740 |
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poilu
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 Posts: 10472 Location: Greece
Expire: 2019-08-29
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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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poilu wrote:
Olivier wrote: |
I tried in DPP 3.8 and worked only on the luminance noise reduction. I set it to 6 which is a lot.
Here are the results. I don't know wether it's better or not |
nice try Olivier, but with noise to 6, it look like from a m4:3
Quote: |
I noticed your firmware is 2.03.
Try with the new one ?
Do you shoot in sRVB ? |
firmware and srgb doesn't affect the raw who is a copy from the sensor
the jpg could get tweaked but no effects on raw conversion _________________ T* |
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Olivier
Joined: 18 Feb 2009 Posts: 5080 Location: France
Expire: 2015-08-06
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:56 am Post subject: |
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Olivier wrote:
You're right, Poilu. _________________ Olivier - Moderator
Dslr : Olympus Pen E-P2 - Fujifilm X-Pro2 - Canon 5D MkII.
SLr and MF lenses : for feedback and helping people, cameras and lenses I own : full list here http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic,p,1442740.html#1442740 |
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poilu
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 Posts: 10472 Location: Greece
Expire: 2019-08-29
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Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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poilu wrote:
raw therapee have a demosaicing algorithm called VNG-4 who give good result
left VNG-4 ... right Bibble 5.3 no sharpening
_________________ T* |
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kansalliskala
Joined: 19 Jul 2007 Posts: 5039 Location: Southern Finland countryside
Expire: 2016-12-30
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:59 am Post subject: |
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kansalliskala wrote:
poilu wrote: |
raw therapee have a demosaicing algorithm called VNG-4 who give good result
left VNG-4 ... right Bibble 5.3 no sharpening
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VNG four color interpolation? Also in DCRaw (UFRaw). _________________ MF: Kodak DCS SLR/c; Samsung NX10; OM-10; Canon T50
Zuiko 28/3.5, Distagon 35/2.8; Yashica ML 50/2;
Zuiko 50/1.4; S-M-C 120/2.8; Zuiko 135/3.5; 200/5;
Tamron AD1 135/2.8, Soligor 180/3.5; Tamron AD1 300/5.6
Tamron zooms: 01A, Z-210
Yashicaflex C; Київ 4 + Юпитер 8, 11; Polaroid 100; Olympus XA; Yashica T3
Museum stuff: Certo-Phot; Tele-Edixon 135; Polaris 90-190; Asahi Bellows; Ixus IIs
Projects: Agfa Isolette III (no shutter), Canon AE-1D (no sensor),
Nikon D80 (dead), The "Peace Camera"
AF: Canon, Tokina, Sigma Video: JVC GZ-MG275E |
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