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Meaning of DDR and red MC on lenses
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:20 pm    Post subject: Meaning of DDR and red MC on lenses Reply with quote
Hello, I'm new to the forum and I thought it this would be a good reason for a first post.

I've been looking at a few CZJ lenses and I noticed some variances between them. Mainly in the red MC and DDR inscriptions on them and I was wondering if anyone could explain what those meant and which if I should seek out one over the other type of thing.

Thanks in advance for all your help with this.
JB


PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
DDR Deutsche Demokratische Republik, origin of lens manufacture
MC multicoated?


PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
egidio wrote:
DDR Deutsche Demokratische Republik, origin of lens manufacture
MC multicoated?


Okay thanks, I actually found a reference the location reference for DDR.

However on the issue of red MC, I find it a bit confusing.
Many people list CZJ Sonnars with MC, but there is no MC written on the lens anywhere. And other times, there is an MC written in red. Which I find somewhat confusing.

I also found one seller who wrote "There is no red MC because it is a black eddition" and another who wrote "This one is the first multicoated type, which haven't write red MC on front ring"

I wish I would have known this before I bid on an auction for an earlier model Sad


PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Generally speaking, if there's no "MC" designation written on an East German lens, it's probably NOT a multicoated lens. I've seen all-black Sonnars (180/2.Cool that were looking just like the newer MC versions, but were in fact single-coated (obvious from the color of the reflections once you've seen both the single-coated and MC versions of this lens).


PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
aoleg wrote:
Generally speaking, if there's no "MC" designation written on an East German lens, it's probably NOT a multicoated lens. I've seen all-black Sonnars (180/2.Cool that were looking just like the newer MC versions, but were in fact single-coated (obvious from the color of the reflections once you've seen both the single-coated and MC versions of this lens).


Can anyone else confirm this?

The seller wrote(in his item description) that this was an MC lens, now... I am being told it is not an MC lens. I'd like to know for sure because I really wanted an MC version to help reduce flair and CA. And so I will return the lens and get a red MC version instead.

Here is his(the sellers) quote:
Quote:
This auction is for the Carl Zeiss Jena MC Sonnar 300mm F4 pentacon six mount lens for medium and long telephoto shots. The lens has multi coated layers (MC) on every glass elements, so avoiding the lens from flare. There’re no red MC text on the lens, because it’s a former black edition.


The lens:


PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
1. MC layers don't reduce CA. CA is attribute if the optical design. MC layers can reduce flares and increase contrast.

2. As for long sonnars (180, 200 and 300mm), non-MCed models are sharper. Later MCed models sufferd from poor quality control, so MCed Sonnar = high chance to get a lemon. If you prefer contrast, get MCed Soonar, if you prefe sharpness, get non-MCed

3. I noticed, that 300mm sonnars with serial number 9930xxx don't have the "MC" mark, but I believe they are multi-coated. Here is another one:
http://www.astrosurf.com/re/zeiss_sonnar_300mm_4_20050106-02.jpg

4. red-MC, white-MC, no difference... earlier CZJ lenses had the red MC mark (it was Zeiss tradition to write the symbols informating about coating quality in red... red T, red T*, red MC etc.). But later, MC layers became common, so there was no reason to highlight their presence.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
no-X wrote:
1. MC layers don't reduce CA. CA is attribute if the optical design. MC layers can reduce flares and increase contrast.


Thank-you for that information, this is very good to know.

no-X wrote:
3. I noticed, that 300mm sonnars with serial number 9930xxx don't have the "MC" mark, but I believe they are multi-coated. Here is another one:
http://www.astrosurf.com/re/zeiss_sonnar_300mm_4_20050106-02.jpg

4. red-MC, white-MC, no difference... earlier CZJ lenses had the red MC mark (it was Zeiss tradition to write the symbols informating about coating quality in red... red T, red T*, red MC etc.). But later, MC layers became common, so there was no reason to highlight their presence.


This is very good news indeed! Is there any way to confirm this?

I am relieved for the remainder of the information, because this had me worried. The only remaining issue(I guess), would be that of the coatings and if this was an MC version, then I'll have an apology to present to the seller.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
JohnBee wrote:



This particular lens is NOT multicoated. The seller is either lying or misinformed. I had one non-MC Sonnar and two MC ones; it is very, very easy to see the differences between them. This one is NOT MC.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
no-X wrote:
1. MC layers don't reduce CA. CA is attribute if the optical design. MC layers can reduce flares and increase contrast.


Right!

no-X wrote:
2. As for long sonnars (180, 200 and 300mm), non-MCed models are sharper. Later MCed models sufferd from poor quality control, so MCed Sonnar = high chance to get a lemon. If you prefer contrast, get MCed Soonar, if you prefe sharpness, get non-MCed


I disagree. I had one non-MC Sonnar and two MC ones (still have one MC). The IQ was around the same among all of them, with the 1st MC being slightly sharper than the other two - only because it has a problem with its aperture that closed about 1/3 of a stop more than the other two lenses.

no-X wrote:
3. I noticed, that 300mm sonnars with serial number 9930xxx don't have the "MC" mark, but I believe they are multi-coated. Here is another one:
http://www.astrosurf.com/re/zeiss_sonnar_300mm_4_20050106-02.jpg


This particular lens you're linking to is NOT multi-coated. I mean, it's very obvious from the appearance and color of the reflections. I have a MC version of this 300mm (a very, very sharp lens BTW), and the difference is obvious.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Interesting. So it seems, that Flektogon 20/4 black isn't the only black CZJ lens, which lacks MC layers...

Anyway, I had about 6-8 long CZJ Sonnars (zebra, black, "star-wars") and all of them performed in similar way: non-MCed were sharper and less contrasty, MCed were more contrasty and less sharp


PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
no-X wrote:
Anyway, I had about 6-8 long CZJ Sonnars (zebra, black, "star-wars") and all of them performed in similar way: non-MCed were sharper and less contrasty, MCed were more contrasty and less sharp


So with the non MC versions, were you able to correct the lack of contrast through PP adjustments? If so... would you conclude it was a none issue or... would the MC variants prove superior in terms of contrast detail

I'm still hoping someone can confirm that this lens has coatings on it though.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
aoleg wrote:
This particular lens you're linking to is NOT multi-coated. I mean, it's very obvious from the appearance and color of the reflections. I have a MC version of this 300mm (a very, very sharp lens BTW), and the difference is obvious.


Thank-you!
It's going right back to the seller who clearly labeled and advertised it as an MC lens when it was not.

I just love wasting time and money on such things. Evil or Very Mad


PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
JohnBee wrote:
I'm still hoping someone can confirm that this lens has coatings on it though.

The lens definately has coating, but not multi-coating. All post-war CZJ SLR lenses have some kind of coating, but only late models are multi-coated. Coating changed in time, so it's hard to make a list of versions, but simply:

1. non-T coating - early post-war, used on non-T silver lenses and T-marked Tessars, light-purple reflections

2. T coating - early post-war era, used on T marked lenses, transfers 80% of light

3. next generation coating - mostly used on zebra lenses, has yellow and blue (yellow/purple) reflections...

4. HEA coating - used on Pancolar 55/1.4 and 75/1.4, causes yellow cast on photos

5. MC coating (mostly on late black lenses)

JohnBee wrote:
So with the non MC versions, were you able to correct the lack of contrast through PP adjustments? If so... would you conclude it was a none issue or... would the MC variants prove superior in terms of contrast detail.

Hood + RAW (or PP) helps, but you'll always lost a bit of microcontrast.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="no-X"]
JohnBee wrote:
5. MC coating (mostly on late black lenses)


In the item description, the seller states that this is the Black version. Is it possible this lens has MC? or is it more likely that he was misinformed?

also, is there anywhere to cross-reference the serial no.?

I really want to make certain that I'm making the right call here because this may result in negative feedback and I really don't want to make a mistakes with such things.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think aoleg is right. He has personal experience with this particular model. Not all black lenses are multi-coated. I know one exception - black Flektogon 20/4. Ant this lens seems to be the second exception Smile


PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I got a fairly recent black 50mm Flektogon for the P6, which is multi-coated although it doesn't say so one the lense. The colour of the coating makes it clear that it is MC.

Thomas


PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
There's really no mistaking an MC Sonnar 300:



(the lens hood didn't want to come off, but I think the bloom gives you the picture)

Before you send yours back, consider what you paid for it. Mine cost $300. If yours was a lot less than that, then you might settle for a refund and boosting the contrast in photoshop.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
PaulC wrote:
Before you send yours back, consider what you paid for it. Mine cost $300. If yours was a lot less than that, then you might settle for a refund and boosting the contrast in photoshop.


I payed 329 for mine.
I guess I've been had. Crying or Very sad


PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
JohnBee wrote:
PaulC wrote:
Before you send yours back, consider what you paid for it. Mine cost $300. If yours was a lot less than that, then you might settle for a refund and boosting the contrast in photoshop.


I payed 329 for mine.
I guess I've been had. Crying or Very sad


Well, I bought mine three years ago so they may be pricier now.

Trust Grizzlybear as a vendor for this stuff, or the university guy in Slovenia (?) who also sells insect pins.

Oh - but ... yeah, send it back.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
PaulC wrote:
Trust Grizzlybear as a vendor for this stuff, or the university guy in Slovenia (?) who also sells insect pins.

Oh - but ... yeah, send it back.


Thanks for the leads.
Could you PM me the info. for those sellers?

Also... do you think I should give bad feedback for this transaction? I will cost me 60 dollars to ship it back and I really don't want to be a bad person. But the seller's terms pretty much state that he can write whatever he wants in an auction description(or title) and that the buyers are responsible for accuracy based on the images.

So, I'm pretty confident that the seller won't help on the shipping even though the title and item description was completely erroneous.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't see how you can honestly give full marks for "as described". But in the end if I get my money back I generally don't bother with feedback (cos I guess they will promptly give you bad feedback, then you have to appeal blah, blah).

I'm not seeing the PM links for some reason. Here is a link to grizzlybears stuff http://cgi.ebay.com/NT-LENS-REAR-PROTECTIVE-CAP-Kiev-6-60-88CM-Pentacon-5pc_W0QQitemZ390167432775QQcategoryZ29977QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m263QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DDLSL%252BSIC%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%252BDDSIC%26otn%3D20%26po%3D%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D8443276671757278762

and the other guy trades as Cupog (I'm pretty sure mine came from Cupog as a buy-it-now). He has one there now http://cgi.ebay.com/Sonnar-300-4-MC-Zeiss-lens-Pentacon-6-Kiev-60_W0QQitemZ380215399948QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFilm_Cameras?hash=item58869a960c


PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
PaulC wrote:
I don't see how you can honestly give full marks for "as described". But in the end if I get my money back I generally don't bother with feedback (cos I guess they will promptly give you bad feedback, then you have to appeal blah, blah).


As far as I know, seller can't leave retaliation feedback anymore. I guess there was to much abuse and so eBay changed their policy recently on that(thankfully).

Oh and thanks for the links.
The buy now lens is exactly what I needed.
Unfortunately, I'll have to wait for this transaction to settle before I can commit another. And so I'm hoping it will stay, but there is a good chance someone else grabs it. Confused


PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Cupog does seem to have a steady supply of those, maybe there is an old stockpile of unused lenses somewhere that he has tapped into.
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