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Right lens for T/S bellows
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:39 am    Post subject: Right lens for T/S bellows Reply with quote

hello experts,

seeking advice from more experienced users.
I got myself a tilt and shift bellows. Seems to be a clone of the more famous kopil bellowsmat.
Unfortunately mounting a regular M42 lens ends up in closeup/marco area, without much options to have some tilt&shift fun.

I guess you usually mount enlarger lenses on such aparatus.
I am seeking for a particular look, trioplan-like, so I guess a triplet design, max tessar type should do the trick.

What I am struggling a bit is to find the right focal length.
For what i intend to shoot, focusing distance appx 1-3m is sufficient.

Do you know any good triplet/tessar enlarger lens I could use?
M39 thread is a bonus, since i have a M39/42 ring, M23.5 ( meopta ) is ok too but i will need to order a custom 3D printed part..

Thank you for tips.
J


#1


PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Right lens for T/S bellows Reply with quote

Jozef_AV wrote:
hello experts,

seeking advice from more experienced users.
I got myself a tilt and shift bellows. Seems to be a clone of the more famous kopil bellowsmat.
Unfortunately mounting a regular M42 lens ends up in closeup/marco area, without much options to have some tilt&shift fun.

I guess you usually mount enlarger lenses on such aparatus.
I am seeking for a particular look, trioplan-like, so I guess a triplet design, max tessar type should do the trick.

What I am struggling a bit is to find the right focal length.
For what i intend to shoot, focusing distance appx 1-3m is sufficient.

Do you know any good triplet/tessar enlarger lens I could use?
M39 thread is a bonus, since i have a M39/42 ring, M23.5 ( meopta ) is ok too but i will need to order a custom 3D printed part..

Thank you for tips.
J

I think you can mount trioplan to it if you have the shutter version.

M23.5 to M39 ring can be found here Click here to see on Ebay.


PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I only have the Minolta Auto Bellows III which offers the tilt-shift function in the front part. In order to obtain focusing to infinity and full tilt-shift ability, I can only use lenses with focal lengths between 100 mm and 135 mm. Right now, my favorite lens for this purpose is a Vivitar VHE 100 mm f/5,6 (aka Schneider Componon-S) which is much too well corrected for your purpose - a simpler lens like the PZO 105mm f4.5 Amar/S might be a better option.


PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it's going to be used with the lens wide open a projector lens might be better. There are many 100mm lenses with a triplet design. The best choice being a Diaplan or Pentacon AV. More or less the exact look of a Trioplan.

You might need an even longer lens to get that working distance, but that's just a guess.


PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 4:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Right lens for T/S bellows Reply with quote

[/quote]I think you can mount trioplan to it if you have the shutter version.

M23.5 to M39 ring can be found here Click here to see on Ebay.[/quote]

which version is that? the pre-war one?


Last edited by Jozef_AV on Sun Apr 30, 2023 5:03 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alsatian2017 wrote:
I only have the Minolta Auto Bellows III which offers the tilt-shift function in the front part. In order to obtain focusing to infinity and full tilt-shift ability, I can only use lenses with focal lengths between 100 mm and 135 mm. Right now, my favorite lens for this purpose is a Vivitar VHE 100 mm f/5,6 (aka Schneider Componon-S) which is much too well corrected for your purpose - a simpler lens like the PZO 105mm f4.5 Amar/S might be a better option.


Similar here, although there is a shift option on the rear side, T/S only on front.
I assumed I will be in need of a 100+ mm lens. Shame I sold my 110 industar years ago, who would have known it might be usefull today..
Thank you for the tips, much appreciated


PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blotafton wrote:
If it's going to be used with the lens wide open a projector lens might be better. There are many 100mm lenses with a triplet design. The best choice being a Diaplan or Pentacon AV. More or less the exact look of a Trioplan.

You might need an even longer lens to get that working distance, but that's just a guess.


I have a Pentacon 80 AV. Unfortunately this lens can not be disassembled as it is plastic encased, at least my version. As it is it wont fit inside M42.
I know the plastic case can be removed but I still use it and dont want to destroy it for a bellows experiment, its a fine play lens Smile


Last edited by Jozef_AV on Sun Apr 30, 2023 5:13 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 5:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Right lens for T/S bellows Reply with quote

Jozef_AV wrote:

which version is that? the pre-war one?

Yes. The Pre-war one. The post-war chrome one You can mount the Diaplan too as suggested by blotafton.


PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need one with a large image circle, large than the format of the camera.


PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

e6filmuser wrote:
You need one with a large image circle, large than the format of the camera.


Since I will be needing 100+ mm lens that shouldn't be much of an issue, those usually cover 6x6 or larger


PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Polaroid MP4 Tominon lenses might be an interesting choice. They are a family of lenses, available in focal lengths of 17, 35, 50, 75, 105 and 135 mm Single lenses or groups of them can often be bought for really reasonable prices as they were manufactured in high numbers. The shorter focal length lenses are only usable for macro work, but I think the 50 mm lens might already have an image circle big enough for some t/s experiments. It can produce interesting bokeh and under certain conditions even slightly Trioplan-like bubbles, but there are other lenses (unfortunately most regular taking lenses with smaller image circles) which seem better at that.

The 135 mm Tominon though is excellent at creating bubbles (in my limited experience even more effective than the Diaplan):

Ballways online by simple.joy, on Flickr

Here's a comparison with the Diaplan 100 mm f/3.5, which might also work great, but I feel like the Tominon 135 mm has the nicer bubbles overall and better contrast:



The Tominon 105 mm might work in a similar way, but I wasn't able to test it.

If you decide that you use different lenses for t/s work and the Trioplan-like shots, the Domiplan might be a good (cheap) candidate for emulating the latter as well, if you can find a good sample:

Nothing too fency… by simple.joy, on Flickr


PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2023 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello simple.joy
Thanks for the tip, I didnt know about Tominon lenses until now. Results are indeed nice.
Are those enlarger lenses, or taken out from a polaroid medium format camera?
Saw some pics on the web with Copal shutter mechanism which immediately reminded me of old collapsible medium format cameras with prontor.

As for the domiplan, so far i have stayed away from them, due to mixed opinions.
Instead opted for steinheil cassarit/auto-cassaron, they can be found cheap and are totally worth it.

Still, I dont think any of the standard fullframe triplet lenses will help here.
In order for the bellows to be able to tilt it has to be extended by a couple of cm, exceeding the M42 flange distance even with a slim M42/e-mount adapter and going straight into closeup territory,
Also the lens should be able to cover a field larger than 24x36 for the T/S to work properly i think.

J


PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2023 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jozef_AV wrote:
Hello simple.joy
Thanks for the tip, I didnt know about Tominon lenses until now. Results are indeed nice.
Are those enlarger lenses, or taken out from a polaroid medium format camera?
Saw some pics on the web with Copal shutter mechanism which immediately reminded me of old collapsible medium format cameras with prontor.

As for the domiplan, so far i have stayed away from them, due to mixed opinions.
Instead opted for steinheil cassarit/auto-cassaron, they can be found cheap and are totally worth it.

Still, I dont think any of the standard fullframe triplet lenses will help here.
In order for the bellows to be able to tilt it has to be extended by a couple of cm, exceeding the M42 flange distance even with a slim M42/e-mount adapter and going straight into closeup territory,
Also the lens should be able to cover a field larger than 24x36 for the T/S to work properly i think.

J


As far as I know they are from the Polaroid MP3/4 camera (maybe used in others as well).

I know about the mixed (perhaps even overwhelmingly bad) reputation of the Domiplan. It seems to be a case of extreme sample variation and I've heard that it has to do with the fact that many of those lenses were 'repaired/serviced' over time and not properly reassembled.

I wouldn't say that it's among the best 50 mm lenses, but I really like my particular sample and think it works well. Here are two tilted shots (at f/2.8 mind you, so quite demanding - I'm sure it performs reasonably well one or two stops down)





I can use it tilted even at infinity - however I use a recessed lensboard on my bellows. It might not be great lens in that regard but using a lens for its 'Trioplan look' will only make sense at close range anyway, or am I missing something?


PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2023 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@simple.joy

Its impressive that you could do a tilt shot with a domiplan. Respect!
I can't do it, not even close, tested with M42 triplet Steinheil auto-cassaron, 50mm f2.8

Maybe i am doing something wrong.
Bellow pics illustrate my issue ( please excuse, bad lighting met ever worse PP skills )

1) Going with the slim M42/Nex adapter for closest possible fit.
Even when fully collapsed, the whole setup is way thicker than any regular adapter, at 5-6 cm appx., way overshooting M42 flange, acting effectively as a marco ring.
Goodbye infinity, hello closeup photography.
Besides, I can't tilt the front anyway, there simply no room to do it.

2) Extending the bellows to some 7-8cm on the scale gives enough room for full front tilt movement, but now with a regular 50mm lens i am close to macro territory.
Noticed also when tilted, my corners cease to exist.

My goal is to have a trioplan look with tilt/shift fully operational somewhere at 1-3m focusing distance.

So far the best option seems to be an enlarger lens with bigger flange distance, ideally 100mm+ FL, covering 6x6 or 6x9.
I sadly don't see any way it could work with regular M42 or similar lens.


#1



#2


PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2023 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You mentioned trioplan. You also mentioned medium format bellows (folding) cameras. Search for a Balda camera with a Trioplan 75mm in it. It should do precisely what you want for 60 to 80 dollars. To mount it remove the lens from the camera by unscrewing the jam nut. Drill a hole just big enough for the threaded portion of the lens in a m42 body cap (5 ish on ebay) use the jam nut on the back to keep it firm. This will give aperture control as well. You will need to set the shutter to "B" and hold the shutter release down. I use a rubber band, but tape or silly putty would also work.


PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2023 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jamaeolus wrote:
You mentioned trioplan. You also mentioned medium format bellows (folding) cameras. Search for a Balda camera with a Trioplan 75mm in it. It should do precisely what you want for 60 to 80 dollars. To mount it remove the lens from the camera by unscrewing the jam nut. Drill a hole just big enough for the threaded portion of the lens in a m42 body cap (5 ish on ebay) use the jam nut on the back to keep it firm. This will give aperture control as well. You will need to set the shutter to "B" and hold the shutter release down. I use a rubber band, but tape or silly putty would also work.

If the lens use a copal shutter, it is very easy to find adapter to M39x1 in ebay.

#00 M25.0x0.5
#0 M32.5x0.5
#1 M39x0.75


PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2023 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jamaeolus wrote:
You mentioned trioplan. You also mentioned medium format bellows (folding) cameras. Search for a Balda camera with a Trioplan 75mm in it. It should do precisely what you want for 60 to 80 dollars. To mount it remove the lens from the camera by unscrewing the jam nut. Drill a hole just big enough for the threaded portion of the lens in a m42 body cap (5 ish on ebay) use the jam nut on the back to keep it firm. This will give aperture control as well. You will need to set the shutter to "B" and hold the shutter release down. I use a rubber band, but tape or silly putty would also work.


Yes, i was considering this too. Unfortunately really old medium format glass doesn't mix well with modern sensors from what i tried.
Before i got the bellows I reused a steinheil cassar 7,5cm from an old korelle 6x4.5 folding camera.
Managed to get it out with shutter mechanism and later on put it back without any damage.

No harm done to the camera.
I am still recovering from the trauma though...

When i saw the image quality that lens produced, simply awful..just to show, see 2 of my "sharpest" shots i managed to get ( still triplet, still bubbles, still counts Smile )
Maybe later I might give trioplan 7,5cm a try, some day, Weltaflex cameras seems to be a good starting point. Or Balda. Was there a 10,5cm trioplan by any chance?


#1


#2


PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2023 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jozef_AV wrote:
@simple.joy

Its impressive that you could do a tilt shot with a domiplan. Respect!
I can't do it, not even close, tested with M42 triplet Steinheil auto-cassaron, 50mm f2.8

Maybe i am doing something wrong.
Bellow pics illustrate my issue ( please excuse, bad lighting met ever worse PP skills )

1) Going with the slim M42/Nex adapter for closest possible fit.
Even when fully collapsed, the whole setup is way thicker than any regular adapter, at 5-6 cm appx., way overshooting M42 flange, acting effectively as a marco ring.
Goodbye infinity, hello closeup photography.
Besides, I can't tilt the front anyway, there simply no room to do it.

2) Extending the bellows to some 7-8cm on the scale gives enough room for full front tilt movement, but now with a regular 50mm lens i am close to macro territory.
Noticed also when tilted, my corners cease to exist.

My goal is to have a trioplan look with tilt/shift fully operational somewhere at 1-3m focusing distance.

So far the best option seems to be an enlarger lens with bigger flange distance, ideally 100mm+ FL, covering 6x6 or 6x9.
I sadly don't see any way it could work with regular M42 or similar lens.

#2


Yeah - I get it! I didn't have a good understanding of the dimensions of your bellows and thought the diameter might be bigger... seems like it really is impossible to get any M42 lens to be usable for tilting. As I've mentioned I use a recessed lensboard on mine and so at least a little part of the lens has to fit inside of your bellows in order for it to work. That seems out of the question in your case.

The Trioplan 75/3.5 mentioned by jamaeolus might indeed be a good option. I have that lens and tested it quickly. I always thought that one wouldn't produce any meaningful bubble bokeh, but maybe I just messed up the lighting when I tried it in the past - it seemed to work fine today. Mine apparently has a shutter unable to stay opened, so I had to improvise. So maybe look out for that in case you're getting one like that.

It's not a sharp lens overall and the image circle also didn't impress me, but it will be significantly easier to get this lens to work on your setup than any M42 lens, I suppose.


PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2023 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've not tried the cassar. But I have used other folder lenses to good effect.

Here are some shots with a helioplan manufactured probably in the early 1930's judging from the dialset shutter. Be sure the lens is as clean as possible. Uncoated lenses exaggerate dirty glass. But because they are uncoated they usually clean up well unless they have been abused. Which unfortunately is not that uncommon. A friend told me "did they think their lens would benefit from a good rubdown with 100 grit sandpaper? "

http://forum.mflenses.com/meyer-goerlitz-doppel-anastigmat-helioplan-75mm-4-5-t81872,highlight,%2Bhelioplan.html


PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2023 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jamaeolus wrote:
I've not tried the cassar. But I have used other folder lenses to good effect.

Here are some shots with a helioplan manufactured probably in the early 1930's judging from the dialset shutter. Be sure the lens is as clean as possible. Uncoated lenses exaggerate dirty glass. But because they are uncoated they usually clean up well unless they have been abused. Which unfortunately is not that uncommon. A friend told me "did they think their lens would benefit from a good rubdown with 100 grit sandpaper? "

http://forum.mflenses.com/meyer-goerlitz-doppel-anastigmat-helioplan-75mm-4-5-t81872,highlight,%2Bhelioplan.html

Like 1 small

I think my 105 helioplan will works fine on bellows too.


PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2023 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jamaeolus wrote:
I've not tried the cassar. But I have used other folder lenses to good effect.

Here are some shots with a helioplan manufactured probably in the early 1930's judging from the dialset shutter. Be sure the lens is as clean as possible. Uncoated lenses exaggerate dirty glass. But because they are uncoated they usually clean up well unless they have been abused. Which unfortunately is not that uncommon. A friend told me "did they think their lens would benefit from a good rubdown with 100 grit sandpaper? "

http://forum.mflenses.com/meyer-goerlitz-doppel-anastigmat-helioplan-75mm-4-5-t81872,highlight,%2Bhelioplan.html


Nice shots. Infact I am considering these vintage medium format lenses as an alternative to enlarger lenses, maybe i get one or two out of each and compare.
Still not sure if 75mm focal length will be enough though. What is the distance of your helioplan from sensor when at infinity please?


PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2023 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

calvin83 wrote:
jamaeolus wrote:
I've not tried the cassar. But I have used other folder lenses to good effect.

Here are some shots with a helioplan manufactured probably in the early 1930's judging from the dialset shutter. Be sure the lens is as clean as possible. Uncoated lenses exaggerate dirty glass. But because they are uncoated they usually clean up well unless they have been abused. Which unfortunately is not that uncommon. A friend told me "did they think their lens would benefit from a good rubdown with 100 grit sandpaper? "

http://forum.mflenses.com/meyer-goerlitz-doppel-anastigmat-helioplan-75mm-4-5-t81872,highlight,%2Bhelioplan.html

Like 1 small

I think my 105 helioplan will works fine on bellows too.


Might be even better than the 75mm version for use on this particular bellows.


PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2023 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've used the trioplan 7,5cm 2.8 from Balda, very easy to remove and adapt m39 ring-m42 helicoid. I wouldn't call it the sharpest lens, contrast is low also, but depending on the results you're looking for, it's still a nice lens. The shutter I keep it open with a spring, a hood would help this lens a lot . There are some dots on the glass that I wasn't able to remove (inner elements), looks like schneideritis, probably coatings affected , and they are visible in the bokeh rings sometimes.
Overall ,for 10-20€/$ it's still an interesting lens to explore , but don't expect results from modern lenses. These are very old lenses,but mine has got totally clean iris with lots of blades . Theres a 5cm 2.9 version Trioplan , that I'm not sure I would need , same folding camera


PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2023 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kiddo wrote:
I've used the trioplan 7,5cm 2.8 from Balda, very easy to remove and adapt m39 ring-m42 helicoid. I wouldn't call it the sharpest lens, contrast is low also, but depending on the results you're looking for, it's still a nice lens. The shutter I keep it open with a spring, a hood would help this lens a lot . There are some dots on the glass that I wasn't able to remove (inner elements), looks like schneideritis, probably coatings affected , and they are visible in the bokeh rings sometimes.
Overall ,for 10-20€/$ it's still an interesting lens to explore , but don't expect results from modern lenses. These are very old lenses,but mine has got totally clean iris with lots of blades . Theres a 5cm 2.9 version Trioplan , that I'm not sure I would need , same folding camera


Nice deal at 10-20eur, I had a look around and the prices are nowhere near nowadays.
Will be on a lookout and hopefully snatch one at a reasonable price. Hunting season, G.A.S. about to start


PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2023 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW, during search for my "special" lens, i stumbled across this page.
Contains a list of most know enlarger lenses + details about lens construction ( elements/groups ), mounting thread, frame coverage, on some even the flange distance at infinity...+references.

https://www.photocornucopia.com/1061.html

Might be worth checking out to some.