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no-X
Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 2495
Location: Budejky, Czech Republic
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patrickh
Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 8551
Location: Oregon
Expire: 2011-11-18
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 Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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patrickh wrote:
Very high quality, but what on earth do they mean with "all the power of an SLR"? Sort of implies interchangeable lenses - actually quite misleading advertising, but what else is new?
patrickh
_________________
DSLR: Nikon D300 Nikon D200 Nex 5N
MF Zooms: Kiron 28-85/3.5, 28-105/3.2, 75-150/3.5, Nikkor 50-135/3.5 AIS // MF Primes: Nikkor 20/4 AI, 24/2 AI, 28/2 AI, 28/2.8 AIS, 28/3.5 AI, 35/1.4 AIS, 35/2 AIS, 35/2.8 PC, 45/2.8 P, 50/1.4 AIS, 50/1.8 AIS, 50/2 AI, 55/2.8 AIS micro, 55/3.5 AI micro, 85/2 AI, 100/2,8 E, 105/1,8 AIS, 105/2,5 AIS, 135/2 AIS, 135/2.8 AIS, 200/4 AI, 200/4 AIS micro, 300/4.5 AI, 300/4.5 AI ED, Arsat 50/1.4, Kiron 28/2, Vivitar 28/2.5, Panagor 135/2.8, Tamron 28/2.5, Tamron 90/2.5 macro, Vivitar 90/2.5 macro (Tokina) Voigtlander 90/3.5 Vivitar 105/2.5 macro (Kiron) Kaleinar 100/2.8 AI Tamron 135/2.5, Vivitar 135/2.8CF, 200/3.5, Tokina 400/5,6
M42: Vivitar 28/2.5, Tamron 28/2.5, Formula5 28/2.8, Mamiya 28/2.8, Pentacon 29/2.8, Flektogon 35/2.4, Flektogon 35/2.8, Takumar 35/3.5, Curtagon 35/4, Takumar 50/1.4, Volna-6 50/2.8 macro, Mamiya 50/1.4, CZJ Pancolar 50/1,8, Oreston 50/1.8, Takumar 50/2, Industar 50/3.5, Sears 55/1.4, Helios 58/2, Jupiter 85/2, Helios 85/1.5, Takumar 105/2.8, Steinheil macro 105/4.5, Tamron 135/2.5, Jupiter 135/4, CZ 135/4, Steinheil Culminar 135/4,5, Jupiter 135/3.5, Takumar 135/3.5, Tair 135/2.8, Pentacon 135/2.8, CZ 135/2.8, Taika 135/3.5, Takumar 150/4, Jupiter 200/4, Takumar 200/4
Exakta: Topcon 100/2.8(M42), 35/2.8, 58/1.8, 135/2.8, 135/2.8 (M42), Kyoei Acall 135/3.5
C/Y: Yashica 28/2.8, 50/1.7, 135/2.8, Zeiss Planar 50/1.4, Distagon 25/2.8
Hexanon: 28/3.5, 35/2.8, 40/1.8, 50/1.7, 52/1.8, 135/3.2, 135/3.5, 35-70/3.5, 200/3.5
P6 : Mir 38 65/3.5, Biometar 80/2.8, Kaleinar 150/2.8, Sonnar 180/2.8
Minolta SR: 28/2.8, 28/3.5, 35/2.8, 45/2, 50/2, 58/1.4, 50/1.7, 135/2.8, 200/3.5
RF: Industar 53/2.8, Jupiter 8 50/2
Enlarg: Rodagon 50/5,6, 80/5,6, 105/5.6, Vario 44-52/4, 150/5.6 180/5.6 El Nikkor 50/2,8,63/2.8,75/4, 80/5,6, 105/5.6, 135/5.6 Schneider 60/5.6, 80/5.6, 80/4S,100/5.6S,105/5.6,135/5.6, 135/5.6S, 150/5.6S, Leica 95/4 |
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F16SUNSHINE
Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 5486
Location: Left Coast
Expire: 2011-11-18
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| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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F16SUNSHINE wrote:
Have always been interested in the DP1 this is even more appealing.
Be nice to see some high ISO samples in this group. Max was 200 
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no-X
Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 2495
Location: Budejky, Czech Republic
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:58 am Post subject: |
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no-X wrote:
I think something is wrong there. The 1st ISO200 sample shows a bit more noise, than I'd expect. Nothing horrible, but I'd guess the image was sligthly underexposed. Or Sigma decided to remove the noise less agressively to preserve more details(?)
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Rob Leslie
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 1103
Location: UK Swindon
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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Rob Leslie wrote:
| no-X wrote: |
| I think something is wrong there. The 1st ISO200 sample shows a bit more noise, than I'd expect. Nothing horrible, but I'd guess the image was sligthly underexposed. Or Sigma decided to remove the noise less agressively to preserve more details(?) |
The DP 1 has a lot of noise at 200iso, I would expect the DP 2 to be the same.
Most of the noise is colour noise (Blotches) in shadows or dark areas, mostly on the green channel, which is taken out with default conversion by clipping the shadow detail but can be clearly seen at all speeds if RAW defaults are turned off.
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Pentax K10D & K100D. Many Tamron Adaptall SP lenses, Fujinon f4.5 400mm. A loved Lens Baby 2, Lubitel triplet +++ and many film cameras. Mainly a Digital user inc G5, GR2
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no-X
Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 2495
Location: Budejky, Czech Republic
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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no-X wrote:
I use SD14, which is noisier than DP1. ISO200 can be clear if the image is exposed properly - not underexposed. Old Foveon sensors used in SD9 and SD10 was prone to overexposure, the new-one (SD14/DP1/DP2) is prone to underexposure. Many users just sets EV to +0.3 or +0.7 to correct this.
Here's my ISO200 shot. Converted from RAW - contrast, shadows, higlights and X3FL are untouched to avoid any clipping:
100% crop of the left border - shadows:
200% enlargement:
None green blotches, none color noise...
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BruceB
Joined: 28 Feb 2009
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:45 pm Post subject: Maybe The Third? |
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BruceB wrote:
This new camera could actually be considered the "third" foveon-based compact camera, if one counts the initial attempt: the aborted Polaroid X530. 
I recently picked up a new X530 on eBay for $60, and it's been a fun experience: stunning colors when shot in RAW and processed through the Sigma software. Has certainly piqued my interest in the DP series. |
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no-X
Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 2495
Location: Budejky, Czech Republic
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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no-X wrote:
X530 was the first Foveon-based compact camera, but its sensor is not APS-C - sized.
Anyway, the SPP and the Polaroid studio is the same software - both of them were developed by Foveon and only logos were different
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patrickh
Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 8551
Location: Oregon
Expire: 2011-11-18
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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patrickh wrote:
Foveon seems to be suffering from the Sony Beta syndrome - popular demand has abandoned it and there is not enough money to develop what has to be a very neat scientific precept. 
patrickh
_________________
DSLR: Nikon D300 Nikon D200 Nex 5N
MF Zooms: Kiron 28-85/3.5, 28-105/3.2, 75-150/3.5, Nikkor 50-135/3.5 AIS // MF Primes: Nikkor 20/4 AI, 24/2 AI, 28/2 AI, 28/2.8 AIS, 28/3.5 AI, 35/1.4 AIS, 35/2 AIS, 35/2.8 PC, 45/2.8 P, 50/1.4 AIS, 50/1.8 AIS, 50/2 AI, 55/2.8 AIS micro, 55/3.5 AI micro, 85/2 AI, 100/2,8 E, 105/1,8 AIS, 105/2,5 AIS, 135/2 AIS, 135/2.8 AIS, 200/4 AI, 200/4 AIS micro, 300/4.5 AI, 300/4.5 AI ED, Arsat 50/1.4, Kiron 28/2, Vivitar 28/2.5, Panagor 135/2.8, Tamron 28/2.5, Tamron 90/2.5 macro, Vivitar 90/2.5 macro (Tokina) Voigtlander 90/3.5 Vivitar 105/2.5 macro (Kiron) Kaleinar 100/2.8 AI Tamron 135/2.5, Vivitar 135/2.8CF, 200/3.5, Tokina 400/5,6
M42: Vivitar 28/2.5, Tamron 28/2.5, Formula5 28/2.8, Mamiya 28/2.8, Pentacon 29/2.8, Flektogon 35/2.4, Flektogon 35/2.8, Takumar 35/3.5, Curtagon 35/4, Takumar 50/1.4, Volna-6 50/2.8 macro, Mamiya 50/1.4, CZJ Pancolar 50/1,8, Oreston 50/1.8, Takumar 50/2, Industar 50/3.5, Sears 55/1.4, Helios 58/2, Jupiter 85/2, Helios 85/1.5, Takumar 105/2.8, Steinheil macro 105/4.5, Tamron 135/2.5, Jupiter 135/4, CZ 135/4, Steinheil Culminar 135/4,5, Jupiter 135/3.5, Takumar 135/3.5, Tair 135/2.8, Pentacon 135/2.8, CZ 135/2.8, Taika 135/3.5, Takumar 150/4, Jupiter 200/4, Takumar 200/4
Exakta: Topcon 100/2.8(M42), 35/2.8, 58/1.8, 135/2.8, 135/2.8 (M42), Kyoei Acall 135/3.5
C/Y: Yashica 28/2.8, 50/1.7, 135/2.8, Zeiss Planar 50/1.4, Distagon 25/2.8
Hexanon: 28/3.5, 35/2.8, 40/1.8, 50/1.7, 52/1.8, 135/3.2, 135/3.5, 35-70/3.5, 200/3.5
P6 : Mir 38 65/3.5, Biometar 80/2.8, Kaleinar 150/2.8, Sonnar 180/2.8
Minolta SR: 28/2.8, 28/3.5, 35/2.8, 45/2, 50/2, 58/1.4, 50/1.7, 135/2.8, 200/3.5
RF: Industar 53/2.8, Jupiter 8 50/2
Enlarg: Rodagon 50/5,6, 80/5,6, 105/5.6, Vario 44-52/4, 150/5.6 180/5.6 El Nikkor 50/2,8,63/2.8,75/4, 80/5,6, 105/5.6, 135/5.6 Schneider 60/5.6, 80/5.6, 80/4S,100/5.6S,105/5.6,135/5.6, 135/5.6S, 150/5.6S, Leica 95/4 |
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no-X
Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 2495
Location: Budejky, Czech Republic
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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no-X wrote:
Sigma bought Foveon short time ago. I think if they haven't plans with it, they wouldn't do it.
Full-frame foveon with current pixel density would have 14 megapixels ("42" sigmas megapixel) and that would be on par with 30 megapixel bayer sensor. The quality would be stunning.
Or medium format - a lot of medium format sensor are noisier than midrange DSLR. So noise wouldn't be an issue. The smallest medium format - 36×48 would mean 28 megapixel foveon ("84" megapixel) - quality comparable to 60 megapixel bayer...
Even somethink like APS-H (Canon 1D - not Ds) would double current resolution without need of increasing pixel density. There is a lot of space for interesting products even if the current pixel size cannot be made smaller.
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patrickh
Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 8551
Location: Oregon
Expire: 2011-11-18
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:29 am Post subject: |
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patrickh wrote:
Problem is - I don't know if Sigma has the resources either. They certainly have more than Foveon, who could not raise capital. I think Sigma bought them more as a defensive measure than anything. I really hope I am wrong, but in today's economic climate even Sigma has to be at risk.
patrickh
_________________
DSLR: Nikon D300 Nikon D200 Nex 5N
MF Zooms: Kiron 28-85/3.5, 28-105/3.2, 75-150/3.5, Nikkor 50-135/3.5 AIS // MF Primes: Nikkor 20/4 AI, 24/2 AI, 28/2 AI, 28/2.8 AIS, 28/3.5 AI, 35/1.4 AIS, 35/2 AIS, 35/2.8 PC, 45/2.8 P, 50/1.4 AIS, 50/1.8 AIS, 50/2 AI, 55/2.8 AIS micro, 55/3.5 AI micro, 85/2 AI, 100/2,8 E, 105/1,8 AIS, 105/2,5 AIS, 135/2 AIS, 135/2.8 AIS, 200/4 AI, 200/4 AIS micro, 300/4.5 AI, 300/4.5 AI ED, Arsat 50/1.4, Kiron 28/2, Vivitar 28/2.5, Panagor 135/2.8, Tamron 28/2.5, Tamron 90/2.5 macro, Vivitar 90/2.5 macro (Tokina) Voigtlander 90/3.5 Vivitar 105/2.5 macro (Kiron) Kaleinar 100/2.8 AI Tamron 135/2.5, Vivitar 135/2.8CF, 200/3.5, Tokina 400/5,6
M42: Vivitar 28/2.5, Tamron 28/2.5, Formula5 28/2.8, Mamiya 28/2.8, Pentacon 29/2.8, Flektogon 35/2.4, Flektogon 35/2.8, Takumar 35/3.5, Curtagon 35/4, Takumar 50/1.4, Volna-6 50/2.8 macro, Mamiya 50/1.4, CZJ Pancolar 50/1,8, Oreston 50/1.8, Takumar 50/2, Industar 50/3.5, Sears 55/1.4, Helios 58/2, Jupiter 85/2, Helios 85/1.5, Takumar 105/2.8, Steinheil macro 105/4.5, Tamron 135/2.5, Jupiter 135/4, CZ 135/4, Steinheil Culminar 135/4,5, Jupiter 135/3.5, Takumar 135/3.5, Tair 135/2.8, Pentacon 135/2.8, CZ 135/2.8, Taika 135/3.5, Takumar 150/4, Jupiter 200/4, Takumar 200/4
Exakta: Topcon 100/2.8(M42), 35/2.8, 58/1.8, 135/2.8, 135/2.8 (M42), Kyoei Acall 135/3.5
C/Y: Yashica 28/2.8, 50/1.7, 135/2.8, Zeiss Planar 50/1.4, Distagon 25/2.8
Hexanon: 28/3.5, 35/2.8, 40/1.8, 50/1.7, 52/1.8, 135/3.2, 135/3.5, 35-70/3.5, 200/3.5
P6 : Mir 38 65/3.5, Biometar 80/2.8, Kaleinar 150/2.8, Sonnar 180/2.8
Minolta SR: 28/2.8, 28/3.5, 35/2.8, 45/2, 50/2, 58/1.4, 50/1.7, 135/2.8, 200/3.5
RF: Industar 53/2.8, Jupiter 8 50/2
Enlarg: Rodagon 50/5,6, 80/5,6, 105/5.6, Vario 44-52/4, 150/5.6 180/5.6 El Nikkor 50/2,8,63/2.8,75/4, 80/5,6, 105/5.6, 135/5.6 Schneider 60/5.6, 80/5.6, 80/4S,100/5.6S,105/5.6,135/5.6, 135/5.6S, 150/5.6S, Leica 95/4 |
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no-X
Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 2495
Location: Budejky, Czech Republic
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:49 am Post subject: |
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no-X wrote:
You are right likely, but I think they don't need to spend much money for development urgently to create product, which will be more interesting for customers. I think the most logical step would be to use current technology and only manufacture bigger sensors.
The reason, why Foveon sensor was smaller, than other APS-C sensors, were lower yields. I think this issue was very likely solved during the years. Producing of bigger sensor with current technology shouldn't be too risky.
APS-C (Sigma, 1.7x) ~ 4.7MP
APS-C (Nikon, 1.5x) ~ 6.1MP
APS-H (Canon, 1.25x) ~ 9.0MP
full-size / full-frame ~ 14.1MP
Even Nikon-sized APS-C should move the Foveon to competitive position in terms of luminance resolution to many todays DSLRs.
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(almost) complete list of Helios lenses |
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