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Overrated? Trioplan 100mm 1:2.8
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:53 pm    Post subject: Overrated? Trioplan 100mm 1:2.8 Reply with quote

We have the "The most overrated manual lens?" Thread - there is the Trioplan 100 mentioned - several times.

I have paid less than 20 Euro for my Trioplan (and I have found Diaplan and Pentacon AV as backup) - and it is at the moment my most loved lens. It gives me the best pictures - apart from my nude photography which has more viewers.

Here my Trioplan love thread Smile
1:

2:

3:

4:


Most images made with Canon EOS 5D, some with EOS 350D or 1000D. The smaller the sensor, the worse the sharpness.
It is not a nearly perfect lens like the Zeiss Otus. It is even not an adequate sharp lens, it is s a lens with character and flaws.
One has to learn to love it, but the love gets stronger due to the "flaws".

For me the lens is worth more than the Zeiss Contax 35mm f/1.4.


PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the second pic, but in general, the Trioplan bokeh isn't to my tastes. Add in the softness and low contrast and it's just not attractive to me. I have a couple of Trioplans in shutter, pre-war uncoated ones, and they don't have the same unusual bokeh for some reason, I have loads of triplets and none of them have the same bokeh so why the Trioplan 100 has is a bit of a mystery to me. The Primotar 4/135 has somewhat similar bokeh but is a Tessar type.


PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great lens for extra pictures and with good eyes, not a point of shoot lens, need to plan shoots, well done.


PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These are very nice shots, Markus. They made me get myself a Trioplan and a Diaplan too Wink

This type of Bokeh is not related to the lens being triplet. It is caused by uncorrected spherical aberrations. I can get the same exact bokeh using Tamron 70-150 soft focus lens and adjusting both aperture and soft focus effect.


PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:28 am    Post subject: Re: Overrated? Trioplan 100mm 1:2.8 Reply with quote

ZoneV wrote:
We have the "The most overrated manual lens?" Thread - there is the Trioplan 100 mentioned - several times.

I have paid less than 20 Euro for my Trioplan (and I have found Diaplan and Pentacon AV as backup) - and it is at the moment my most loved lens. It gives me the best pictures - apart from my nude photography which has more viewers.

Here my Trioplan love thread Smile


I am one of those who mentioned the trioplan in that thread.
First, your samples are great, congrats: I have had the trioplan for a while, and never could get such good results, so probably it's just that it's not the lens for me.
The reason why I think it's overrated, though, is that I see it as a lens with a quite limited field of application with a great amount of hype around it, and the fact that I think that there are better 2.8/100s (Kaleinar 5, meyer orestor) for a fraction of the price: obviously if its going price was 20 I wouldn't have mentioned it.
But, these are completely subjective considerations, so take them just for what they are.
For me, my humble mir 24 is worth more than the trioplan.


PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you all for the replies!

For sure there are technical better lenses around for less money.
The Trioplan is a special lens, not ideal for normal use. But its speciality accentuated background (and so soap bubble bokeh) not many other lenses have:
The Tamron 70-150 soft focus (~700 Euro) - but from internet images it looks a bit like there is the soap bubble bokeh border thicker, not as fine as with the Trioplan.
The Nikon Defocus Control Nikkor lenses 105 DC (650 Euro) and 135 DC (800 Euro).
And some other Meyer lens designs like the Meyer Grlitz Priomtar 135mm/3.5 and some Diaplan / Pentacon AV lenses.
Most likely there are some other lenses around with this effect, but not many.

For me - and most likely those people who pay much money for the Trioplan this kind of over-corrected spehrical abberation bokeh is a part of their photographic tool-set. As said - I think because of this the Trioplan is worth those 400 Euro or even more - for those who n search for such a special lens.
As a normal lens for normal use it would be worth less than 100 Euro.


PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice shots Markus!

I guess it all comes from the love of that special bokeh in Asia and the dreamy, lower contrast rendering it does,
this combined into one lens makes it so desirable...

It's like "loving pizza" - but would you like to eat pizza all day and all life long? Naaaahhh....
I like it too, but I don't get gaga about it Wink

Every lens has its special rendering ideal for special "targets" and situations and shoudl be used like that IMHO.

P.S.: OK, so send your Contax 35mm my way then PLEEEZZZE!!


Last edited by kds315* on Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:33 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kds315* wrote:
Nice shots Markus!
...
P.S.: OK, so send your Contax 35mm my way then PLEEEZZZE!!


Wrong name, no Zeiss 35/1.4 to Weinheim Wink
And I have three Trioplan 100 lenses (one real one, two projection copies) - so no need to swap lenses.

Klaus, I do not only use the Trioplan. The Zeiss 35 is sometimes on the camera, or other fine (Zeiss, Canon L) or not so fine (Sigma YS, Porst) lenses as well. It is a special photographic tool, like a microphoto lens as well Smile


PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bummer Crying or Very sad

But indeed, it is a very special "tool" Wink


PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoneV wrote:
Thank you all for the replies!

The Tamron 70-150 soft focus (~700 Euro) - but from internet images it looks a bit like there is the soap bubble bokeh border thicker, not as fine as with the Trioplan.


I need to try and do side-by-side comparison between Trioplan and Tamron, even just for myself.


PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The old canon serenar 85mm can do bubbles Wink



PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nordentro wrote:
The old canon serenar 85mm can do bubbles Wink ...


I search for a cheap Serenar 85 since months - hope now not more search people search for it.

Alex H wrote:
...
I need to try and do side-by-side comparison between Trioplan and Tamron, even just for myself.


This would be great!


PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trioplan has special bokeh not only bubble bokeh, works so well on a few selected scenery , great thread Marcus, I love these shoots!


PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Attila,
I love the soap bubbles for some images. But this structure boosting for the background structure is also a great thing. It does not give the typical "Trioplan" images, but it is the same optical effect.

I have to use the very smooth foreground bokeh more often - I have no image online that shows this effect of spherical abberation overcorrection in a nice Trioplan image.

Regarding the Serenar 80 - now I have hope. I think I have a breakthrough in my optical experimentation, and made a fast ~90mm lens with "soap bubble bokeh"! But it weights a ton, suppose 2.5kg :-/


PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you sure it's over-correction of spherical aberration? The two main weaknesses of the triplet design at large apertures are uncorrected spherical aberration and curvature of field.

http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mechanical-engineering/2-71-optics-spring-2009/projects/design-of-a-cooke-triplet/MIT2_71S09_sw06.pdf


PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Are you sure it's over-correction of spherical aberration? The two main weaknesses of the triplet design at large apertures are uncorrected spherical aberration and curvature of field.

http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mechanical-engineering/2-71-optics-spring-2009/projects/design-of-a-cooke-triplet/MIT2_71S09_sw06.pdf


We need to be careful of the terminology here - uncorrected could refer to both undercorrected and overcorrected. Indeed, most of the triplets may look like they have undercorrected spherical aberrations. That is what makes trioplan different.

Besides, this type of bokeh has nothing to do with triplet lens design per se. As was already mentioned in this thread, other, non-triplet, lenses can show the same effect, like Tamron 70-150/2.8 soft, and the Primotar 135/4. It is also present in Primoplan 58/1.9, but due to considerable astigmatism, the "bubbles" are not "complete".

This is the interesting read about bokeh: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/bokeh.shtml


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoneV wrote:
Alex H wrote:
...
I need to try and do side-by-side comparison between Trioplan and Tamron, even just for myself.


This would be great!


Used two different cameras and shot incamera JPGs with different preset WB (forgot to change), so sorry for the different colors, but it will make it easier to tell the lenses apart.

Left-most Trioplan, four others to the right - Tamron 70-150 soft.
Both set to F/2.8, 1m focusing distance, Tamron set to approximately 100mm.

Soft settings were changed in Tamron from 0 to 3 (left to right).



PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much Alex H!
Great, I suppose most Tamron 70-150 soft images I saw online where made with soft 3 setting, and so thicker bright border circle.
With soft 2 settings the border looks thin like with the Trioplan 100.

Do you know whats the reason for the bokeh structure - aspheric lens or dust, or something else?
Found nothing about an aspheric element in this lens.


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoneV wrote:
Do you know whats the reason for the bokeh structure - aspheric lens or dust, or something else?
Found nothing about an aspheric element in this lens.


Probably dust... It is less obvious, but also present in Trioplan shot.


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice work Alex, thanks! Structures visible in bokeh "bubbles" are usually
dirt/dust on lens surfaces - a fine method to test how clean a lens is... Wink


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kds315* wrote:
Nice work Alex, thanks! Structures visible in bokeh "bubbles" are usually
dirt/dust on lens surfaces - a fine method to test how clean a lens is... Wink


Yeah, one of the few reasons for me to clean inside a lens.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually really like those bubbles. So, is it the dust or the lens design?


PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In case you mean the structure in the hole bokeh circle it is most likely dust - but for example some few (not all) Samyang lenses have nearly such a structure likely due to the aspheric lens.

The outer bright ring on the bokeh circle is lens design - one reason why I love the Trioplan 100.


PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any other lenses that can do soap bubble bokeh or just this one? Aka, what's the exact design of this one called?


PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A "Cooke Triplet" it is... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooke_triplet

Last edited by kds315* on Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:32 pm; edited 1 time in total