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Zeiss LOXIA MF lenses for the A7 series
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:06 pm    Post subject: Zeiss LOXIA MF lenses for the A7 series Reply with quote
Zeiss will soon announce a new line of lenses named “Loxia”. It will be made for the Full Frame Sony E-mount system! The characteristic of those lenses are:

- They are native E-mount Full Frame lenses
- These are designed and made by Zeiss itself. These are not Zeiss branded and Sony manufactured lenses like the Zeiss 55mm f/1.8 FE for example.
- These are manual focusing prime lenses (allows a more compact design).
- They have a physical aperture ring on the lens.
- Made of very high material quality.
- There will be many of such lenses coming the next 12 months.

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/


PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Like the Touit line, the Loxia lenses will be very expensive, but "made of high material quality" (sic), that is, made of optical glasses and aluminum. As any Helios 44 and Pentacon lenses Laughing


PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
great news, the bad part is the zeiss pricing Laughing

still waiting for sigma...


PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Interesting, keen to see the results....


PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Interesting; it will be possible to buy MF and AF Zeiss glass for Sony E mount, pretty unique situation! But will they make similar lenses in these different lines? For example a fast 50mm? It should be part of any significant lens line, but the existing FE is said to perform close to the Otus level. Will Zeiss make a competitor MF product? Or maybe Sony/Zeiss wants to grab part of the "Leica market"? (Physical aperture ring makes sense in this case!)


PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Gerald wrote:
Like the Touit line, the Loxia lenses will be very expensive, but "made of high material quality" (sic), that is, made of optical glasses and aluminum. As any Helios 44 and Pentacon lenses Laughing


I have a ZE prime and a Contax zoom. Both are very well made, light years beyond the Helios 44 or Pentacon. I am pretty sure that the materials used by Cosina are carefully selected...


PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mark wrote:
Gerald wrote:
Like the Touit line, the Loxia lenses will be very expensive, but "made of high material quality" (sic), that is, made of optical glasses and aluminum. As any Helios 44 and Pentacon lenses Laughing


I have a ZE prime and a Contax zoom. Both are very well made, light years beyond the Helios 44 or Pentacon. I am pretty sure that the materials used by Cosina are carefully selected...


Are the aluminum and brass used in a Zeiss lens any better than those in Helios 44? Are the optical glasses used in a Zeiss lens any better than those used in a Samyang 24mm F1.4 lens, which has four optical elements made of ED glasses?

The answer to these questions is no.

Zeiss lenses do not use BETTER materials; they use MORE materials!


PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
i will wait for sigma full frame lenses too ( sigma hurry up please )


PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Gerald wrote:
Mark wrote:
Gerald wrote:
Like the Touit line, the Loxia lenses will be very expensive, but "made of high material quality" (sic), that is, made of optical glasses and aluminum. As any Helios 44 and Pentacon lenses Laughing


I have a ZE prime and a Contax zoom. Both are very well made, light years beyond the Helios 44 or Pentacon. I am pretty sure that the materials used by Cosina are carefully selected...


Are the aluminum and brass used in a Zeiss lens any better than those in Helios 44? Are the optical glasses used in a Zeiss lens any better than those used in a Samyang 24mm F1.4 lens, which has four optical elements made of ED glasses?

The answer to these questions is no.

Zeiss lenses do not use BETTER materials; they use MORE materials!

Aluminum can come in many grades, from cheap cast aluminum that is then machined, to aviation grade billet aluminum alloy.


PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lightshow wrote:
Aluminum can come in many grades, from cheap cast aluminum that is then machined, to aviation grade billet aluminum alloy.

Yes, it is true that aluminum comes in diverse grades. However, all are relatively inexpensive, at least in the amounts used in a typical lens, i.e., a few hundred grams. To get an idea of the price of high-strength aluminum, as used in airplanes, see here the price of aluminum for aircraft:

http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/6061-t6-aircraft-grade-aluminum.html

It costs about $2 per kg! A typical lens uses only 100~200g of aluminum, what would cost $0.20 to $0.40.

Note: Most probably a Zeiss lens doesn't use aircraft-grade but cheaper aluminum.

I just smile when I see a company like Zeiss trying to justify the high price of their products through the claim that they are "made of high-quality materials."


PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, I think they can do that as many consumer grade lenses are made of really cheap plastics sometimes with plastic mount as well. Event the cheapest aluminium alloy can be seen as an extra feature, right? At least for me...


PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
From Sonyalpharumors.com: (SR5) First Zeiss Loxia will be a 35mm f/2.0 and 50mm f/2.0 lens.

I believe I got the idea behind the Zeiss Loxia!
It seems that Zeiss wants to start a lens line equivalent to the Leica M series, using the Sony A7 as a platform.

What are the most important characteristics of the Leica M series? They are as follows:
1. small and light
2. high optical and mechanical quality
3. short back focal distance
4. market dominated by tradition
5. very expensive

The Zeiss Loxia has potential to satisfy all the above characteristics. For example, the Loxia lenses will be very small so that 3 or 4 lenses can be carried in a small bag or even in the pocket.

Possible evolution of the Loxia lineup:
a) 50mm F2 and 35mm F2 (already announced)
b) 28mm F2.8 and 90mm F2.8
c) 21mm F4 and 135mm F4

Such lenses would be very small and light, and would combine very well with Sony A7, which also has reduced dimensions and weight.
If my theory is right, the Leica M will have a formidable competitor ahead.


PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Not impossible. For example the Contax G system competed against Leica earlier, although it was not a traditional rangefinder. So some kind of "digital, manual focus rangefinder" can do well against Leica digital cams again.


PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Gerald wrote:
From Sonyalpharumors.com: [color=blue](SR5)
c) 21mm F4 and 135mm F4


I have my doubts about a compact short focal flange distance symetrical 21mm without severe color shift, smearing and vignetting. The current Sony sensors are not good enough yet. The A7S is the only camera with almost no color shift, but still has a big chunck of corner smearing. Confused


PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nordentro wrote:
Gerald wrote:
From Sonyalpharumors.com: [color=blue](SR5)
c) 21mm F4 and 135mm F4


I have my doubts about a compact short focal flange distance symetrical 21mm without severe color shift, smearing and vignetting. The current Sony sensors are not good enough yet. The A7S is the only camera with almost no color shift, but still has a big chunck of corner smearing. Confused


The Biogon design might be able to be tweaked to work.

The Oberkochen Biogon 2.8/35 works okay on the older NEX cameras, not tried it on a newer one or a FF A7. The corners are fine, you see a tiny bit of magenta colour shift on maybe 1 in 5 shots.

Has anyone tried the 21mm Biogon of the Contax G on an A7 yet?

If Zeiss and Sony work together, they might be able to design a sensor that works with non-retrofocal wides. It's probably a case of a new type of microlens being needed.


PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Gerald wrote:
"made of high-quality materials."


I'd like to see brass and chrome, a return to the quality that was standard in the 1950s and 60s.

Actually, it was the oil crisis of 1972/3 that put an end to such things and saw the cheapening of the materials used.


PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Image of Loxia 50mm posted on sonyalpharumors:



Based on the specs its a "normal" Planar.


PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
In this weeks 'Amateur Photographer' there's a mention of Sony making a curved sensor to address this corner problem.



Obviously all copyright belongs to A.P. - this is shared here for 'Fair use'.


PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mark wrote:
Image of Loxia 50mm posted on sonyalpharumors:



Based on the specs its a "normal" Planar.


Someone commented on SAR that this thing looks like a Tamron SP Adaptall 90. I would have to agree. Although I am sure the blue label will cost you extra extra. Like $900 extra.


PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lloydy wrote:
In this weeks 'Amateur Photographer' there's a mention of Sony making a curved sensor to address this corner problem.

...

Obviously all copyright belongs to A.P. - this is shared here for 'Fair use'.


Sonyalpharumors also spread news about the Sony curved sensors. The article mentions that it is hard to develop an interchangeable lens system based on a curved sensor. As far as I remember designing a zoom is exceptionally challenging (again, from sonyalpharumors), so probably Sony will create RX* products based on this sensor. Of course the real innovation (and Leica-killer) would be the curved sensor with some Zeiss lenses....


PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Gerald wrote:
"made of high-quality materials."


I'd like to see brass and chrome, a return to the quality that was standard in the 1950s and 60s.


Brass is a heavy alloy that was replaced by aluminum in photographic lenses. Titanium would be better than brass. Titanium is a metal that has the strength of steel and the lightness of aluminum. Ah, but the titanium is very expensive ... Do you know what is the price of titanium? It's less than $10/lb!

http://www.metalprices.com/p/TitaniumFreeChart


PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I used to be in the machine tool business, did a lot of work with US aerospace companies.
Problem with titanium for these applications is machineability. Compared to aluminum or brass its a PITB.
Its hard to cast in shapes close to the desired final shape so you have to remove much more metal. You also have to run tools slowly. And there are a dozen other things to worry about.


PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I agree, Luis, but everything you said applies in certain way to optical glasses. But that does not preclude the use of optical glasses in photographic lenses. Smile


PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, but you cant avoid glass (well, sometimes with plastic) for these applications.
And they do in fact cast glass blanks very close to the final form factor, so the machining (grinding) is fairly limited.

Titanium for the mechanical parts though, that would add substantially to the manufacturing cost, besides the slight increase in cost of materials.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mark wrote:
Lloydy wrote:
In this weeks 'Amateur Photographer' there's a mention of Sony making a curved sensor to address this corner problem.

...

Obviously all copyright belongs to A.P. - this is shared here for 'Fair use'.


Sonyalpharumors also spread news about the Sony curved sensors. The article mentions that it is hard to develop an interchangeable lens system based on a curved sensor. As far as I remember designing a zoom is exceptionally challenging (again, from sonyalpharumors), so probably Sony will create RX* products based on this sensor. Of course the real innovation (and Leica-killer) would be the curved sensor with some Zeiss lenses....


It could be a Nikon and Canon killer as well Wink
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