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iangreenhalgh1
Joined: 18 Mar 2011
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 Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 5:14 am Post subject: WWII Aerial Lens 5inch f4 ref. No 14A/843 |
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iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Hi folks
Anyone got any idea who made this lens? Any idea what camera it is from and what the register distance might be?
I'm planning to use it as a tilt/shift lens.
Anyone used an aerial lens on a dslr before?
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iangreenhalgh1
Joined: 18 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 5:51 am Post subject: |
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iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
I think this might be a Ross Xpress lens, however only info I can find is pics from other ebay auctions.
Mine is missing a lot of the markings the others have though...
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martinsmith99
Joined: 31 Aug 2008
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Location: S Glos, UK
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 5:56 am Post subject: |
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martinsmith99 wrote:
Let's see the lens in use.
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iangreenhalgh1
Joined: 18 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 6:07 am Post subject: |
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iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
I'll figure out a way to mount it when it arrives.
Found out a bit of info:
| Quote: |
| The Ross Xpres is a general-purpose lens similar in performance to a Tessar, though differing in construction in having three rear elements, all cemented. The 6" was listed as covering 4" X 5" and would allow considerable use of movements on 2 1/4" X 3 1/4". The 12 inch was rated for full-plate use. |
| Quote: |
| The 5" lens you mention might be the f4 Wide Angls Xpres. Large numbers of these were made for British military use during WW II. They show up rather often, nearly always in the 5" focal length,and more often than not in an odd military barrel with no maker's markings. They were not actually all that wide, unly 70 degrees, but could be used wide open at f4, which was unequalled at the time. Burke & James apparently coated, remounted, and sold some of these lenses under their own tradenames. |
| Quote: |
| I have a Ross 5in Wide Angle Xpress f4 lens I have yet to take a picture with it but I recall reading somwhere that it would cover 5x7. I've tried it on my 5x4 and it looks pretty sharp. I have one obscure question about this lens. It was made for the British Government as it is stamped with a crown, but the crown stamp is between the letters A & M instead of the usual WO (standing for War Office). Does anybody know which department /service the letters A & M stand for? Thanks, Pete. |
| Quote: |
| Ernest, I just checked the Vade Mecum, which reports that most plain vanilla f/4.5 Xpres lenses were tessar types, also the f/3.8 one supplied for, e.g., the Selfix 820. There were other versions that were five element lenses, 1 + 1 + i + 3, in the Vade Mecum's notation, as you reported. And then there were Wide Angle Xpres lenses, as for example a 5"/4 I have, that seem to be plasmats. |
So the lens has a 70 degree angle of view and needs to be mounted 127mm from the sensor, produces Tessar-like sharpness wide open, sounds useable. I'll have to try it mounted on a set of bellows.
I'm guessing these lenses were used in aerial reconnaisance aircraft (Spitfire?) so it's quite a cool piece of kit with history I suppose, who knows what it might have photographed in the past from 30,000 feet?
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iangreenhalgh1
Joined: 18 Mar 2011
Posts: 15685
Expire: 2014-01-07
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Well, the lens arrived today and it's in excellent condition, optics look perfect, aperture is very smooth and looks to have 16-18 blades.
Stuck it on a long extension tube and quickly shot these test shots, just holding the lens with my hand against the end of the tube:
It's sharp and the colours are vivid, but it's low contrast and prone to glare so needs some PP, but once mounted properly on a focussing apparatus and fitted with a hood, this should be a good, useable lens, contrast can always be fixed in PP...
This is straight out of the camera, no adjustment:
After adjusting contrast in Photoshop:
For this one, I turned the contrast slider on the RAW loader all the way to max:
After further adjusting contrast in Photoshop:
BTW, I did some research and this lens was used on the F24 aerial reconaissance camera, as fitted to Spitfires in WWII, this was the original lens, they later replaced t with a longer 8 inch lens. The aerial recon Spitfire flew at 33,000ft and was the best photo intelligence weapon of the war by far, the Americans used it as well. Most of Europe was photographed in 3D by these aircraft, maybe this lens I have actually flew over occupied Europe and photographed something that was then bombed?
A cool piece of history to own, nonetheless and makes an ironic polar opposite to all the German made glass from Dresden, Jena etc. as this is a British lens and was used to photograph those German cities prior to being bombed - A British lens that helped destroy the German optical factoires quite literally...
War is a horrid thing but history is cool, remember that those who ignore history's lessons are doomed to failure!
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iangreenhalgh1
Joined: 18 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 3:35 am Post subject: |
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iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Wow, this thread has 141 views and no replies...
Is this lens really that uninteresting?
After a lot of trial and effort I think I've worked out the right distance to mount this lens from the sensor to obtain infinity, now I'm in the process of building a helicoid/mounting for it.
In the meantime, a few more shots I took with it, all wide open, it's certainly sharp and I'm pleasantly surprised that it has no visible CA at all as this lens was built to shoot BW film. Colours are vivid too, shame about the contrast but it can be corrected in PP.
100% crop:
100% crop:
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fuzzywuzzy
Joined: 18 Dec 2010
Posts: 1258
Location: Down East, Canada, eh?
Expire: 2013-11-30
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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fuzzywuzzy wrote:
That's cool in several different ways, nice find!
Some nice shots and great PP results.
I look forward to your shift/tilt contraption. |
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enzodm
Joined: 11 Sep 2010
Posts: 350
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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enzodm wrote:
Well, I just crossed the thread now: very nice discovery. By the way, registration distance will give you wide margin of work to adapt.
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iangreenhalgh1
Joined: 18 Mar 2011
Posts: 15685
Expire: 2014-01-07
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| Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 2:14 am Post subject: |
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iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
I gave up on the tilt/shift idea for now at least and made a focusing mount for this lens out of a bored-out body cap and a waste pipe coupler.
It hits infinity, lens is sharp but I find that it has very low contrast, I can fix this in PP but it results in very flat images, no 3d 'pop' to be had here.
Very dull, grey day here which didn't help with contrast. I'll try to take some more shots to test the bokeh tomorrow.
100% crop:
My usual subject to test wide open sharpness:
100% crop, sharp as a very sharp thing:
One other thing I note is that this lens, despite being only 127mm really crushes perspective, that, combined with the low contrast really does make images very flat indeed:
100% crop:
100% crop:
100% crop:
100% crop:
100% crop:
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iangreenhalgh1
Joined: 18 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Wow, over 280 views and no-one has any comments on this lens?
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tikkathree
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 755
Location: Lovely Suffolk in Great Britain
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 5:03 am Post subject: |
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tikkathree wrote:
| iangreenhalgh1 wrote: |
| Wow, over 280 views and no-one has any comments on this lens? |
Hey, don't beat yourself up. You ought to know that's generally how it is in web forums. (Currently I lurk in two others but only ever bother now to post images at this one. Why? Low response rate resulting in me not spending my time putting posts together.)
Your lens will be a complete mystery to many people and the fact that it has the broad arrow and possible Air Ministry markings will mean nothing to the many here who live outside the UK.
Also, when you accurately describe the images shown you leave us very little to say. My suggestion would be to take images with more contrast in them as your street scenes - whilst I understand why you use them to show depth of field and sharpness - are quite neutral in colour. The washing line's a good idea and I like the young chap in them - might he have a brighter gansey he might wear whilst doing his domestics?
Anyway, I say every credit for trying something completely different.
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I used to think digital was fun but then I discovered film, then I found old lenses and then, eventually I found rangefinders.
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iangreenhalgh1
Joined: 18 Mar 2011
Posts: 15685
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 5:20 am Post subject: |
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iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Thanks for the feedback. I want to try this lens for some landscapes as I have a feeling the flatness of it;s renderings will make them look like landscape paintings, could be a nice look if used right. Still need to see how the bokeh is too, fingers crossed it's a sunny day today!
I'll have to take some pics of the mount I've made for this lens, it works rather well, I'm making another identical one for my 16.5cm Tessar.
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Minolfan
Joined: 30 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 7:04 am Post subject: |
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Minolfan wrote:
The lens appears to be sharp, but the contrast is not on great level. Do you use a hood for the lens? I think that might help a lot. In its earlyer life the lens was built in en directed downwards I think, so no need of special actions against flare.
Where you have photoshopped the contrast, the results are good enough, so it would be nice to get the contrast during the making of the picture. |
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SXR_Mark
Joined: 12 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 7:34 am Post subject: |
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SXR_Mark wrote:
| iangreenhalgh1 wrote: |
I gave up on the tilt/shift idea for now at least and made a focusing mount for this lens out of a bored-out body cap and a waste pipe coupler.
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Hi Ian,
Nice work with a real piece of history. Sharpness is impressive, but essential for aerial surveillance photography I would say.
What have you done to the inside surface of your waste pipe coupler? If it's just plane plastic it will probably cause a lot of scattered light with this lens as the image circle will be very large. I would try coating it with black craft felt or black flocked paper. Do the same with any hood you make as well. Hopefully this will help with the contrast.
Mark
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iangreenhalgh1
Joined: 18 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Hi guys, thanks for the feedback, I'm still pretty much a learner so it does really help me to get some advice from the more experienced...
I didn't use a hood, I haven't got one that will fit, but I have a larger one I can tape in place for now.
As for the inside of the pipe, it's the semi-matt black that it originally came in, it doesn't look very reflective, but it's not as matt as it could be. I will take some coarse emery paper and rub down the insides of the tube to make them slightly 'rough' and reduce the chance of reflection.
The sun just appeared so I'm off out to try this lens to shoot some landscapes, I'll post results later.
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iangreenhalgh1
Joined: 18 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:39 am Post subject: |
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iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
70 more views, you guys really like to lurk, don't ya! lol
I messed up this afternoon's shoot by forgetting to clean my sensor so the images were covered in dirt spots. I cleaned a couple of them up to show you.
I have discovered something - the lack of contrast is at f4 or f5.6, stop the lens down to it's smallest apertures and the contrast is much better, it also seems that the hood I gaffer taped on helped a lot too. I need to get a hod with the correct thread for this lens for sure.
These were at the smallest aperture, on a tripod, 1/8 sec I think...
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tikkathree
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:42 am Post subject: |
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tikkathree wrote:
Lurker number 684573 here!
More brown images? Though I confess to liking the hilltop cloud in numbr 1. Can't you find a nice busy supermarket carpark or some tubs of flowers? You might, at the end of the day, need a filter on this lens to increase contrast.
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I used to think digital was fun but then I discovered film, then I found old lenses and then, eventually I found rangefinders.
EOS 5DII, loadsalenses
Canon G9 IR conv,
MF: TLR, 645 and folders
35mm: Oly OM Pro bodies 1, 2, 3 and 4; Soviet RF kit |
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iangreenhalgh1
Joined: 18 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:44 am Post subject: |
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iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
I took a ton of shots but threw all but those two away because of all the dirt spots on the sensor. I've cleaned it and will try the lens again today if the sun comes out again.
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iangreenhalgh1
Joined: 18 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:51 am Post subject: |
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iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
What you said about brown images got me thinking, I wonder what some of the shots with this lens look like in monochrome.
I think they look better in mono than colour to be honest.
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Sciolist
Joined: 29 Mar 2017
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Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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Sciolist wrote:
Ian, I've just received VV178790 and given it a much needed wash and brush up. I loved the way everything just comes apart beautifully. That's military for you, I suppose. Did you find a reducer of some sort to finally mount it, or did you have to make something yourself?
I'm currently scratching my head on ways to mount on to the 5mm sliver of smooth sided, 52.85mm dia body that's available behind the original mounting plate. My first thought is an M52 helicoid, so perhaps a 54 to 52 reducer that is around 15mm deep to get over the rear lens before reducing to a male M52 thread. I could wrap the sliver of body in masking tape to allow the female 54mm thread to tap into it. Just thinking.
Thanks. |
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Sciolist
Joined: 29 Mar 2017
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| Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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Sciolist wrote:
Has anyone else successfully mounted one of these lenses? |
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Bru3ce
Joined: 29 Jul 2020
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| Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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Bru3ce wrote:
I have a (later 6in f3.5) Xpres. The thead retaining the rear element(s) is threaded with a standard filter thread. In the case of mine, a normal 46mm filter fitted easily. I got a 46mm(m) to 49mm(f) stepping ring to which I attached a 49mm to M42 reversing ring to fit my extension bellows. |
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Sciolist
Joined: 29 Mar 2017
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Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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Sciolist wrote:
| Bru3ce wrote: |
| I have a (later 6in f3.5) Xpres. The thead retaining the rear element(s) is threaded with a standard filter thread. In the case of mine, a normal 46mm filter fitted easily. I got a 46mm(m) to 49mm(f) stepping ring to which I attached a 49mm to M42 reversing ring to fit my extension bellows. |
Thank you Bru3ce.
I wondered about that thread. Mine looks like the standard filter thread too, but I thought it might not be strong enough, being made from brass, to take the weight. Are your threads made from brass, Bru3ce? I've just measured the diameter on mine. It's 47.25mm. Awkward one. |
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jamaeolus
Joined: 19 Mar 2014
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| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:09 am Post subject: |
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jamaeolus wrote:
I was not on the forum for the initial go through on this thread but I find the images exceptional. Especially the early freelens experiments.
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kymarto
Joined: 30 Nov 2016
Posts: 406
Location: Portland, OR and Milan, Italy
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| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:47 am Post subject: |
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kymarto wrote:
| Sciolist wrote: |
| Has anyone else successfully mounted one of these lenses? |
I did without problems, I don't have the lens here, but as I remember it was simply a matter of adding a filter ring adapter on the back to convert to 52mm and then using a Nikon ring to reverse mount a 52mm lens. That goes into a helicoid that attaches to whichever camera you have. I used it on a Nikon D800, and now on my Sony A7RII.
For the record, this lens is the Ross Wide Xpress, and the letters AM stand for Air Ministry. Here are some shots I took with this lens. It has very lovely bokeh if you know how to elicit it, and the only real drawback is that because it is uncoated, it can be very low in contrast if there is any backlight.
#4
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