Wide angle lenses for 6x9

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

Thanks Dan. I rarely see any oscilloscope cameras for sale, I am always keeping an eye open for anything with a shutter that might be useful.

That's an interesting Biogon. I found a flickr thread where a guy made his own budget SWC beater out of a Mamiya Press 6x9 back and a Hexanon 58mm from a Koni Omega, remounted in a Copal.

The X-Pan used to interest me then I saw some results from a member here who has one and it kind of put me off because they were pretty bad, but maybe it was the shooter. Either way, I'll never be able to afford an Xpan.

danfromm · Joined: 04 Sep 2011 Posts: 576

Ian, I don't know about the 58/5.6 Hexanon being a Biogon beater. Good lens, to be sure. When my 38 Biogon came back from Grimes, I fell in love with it and didn't use any other lens on 2x3 for a couple of months. Then I realized that shooting some broad vistas with a w/a lens made no sense, and the spell was broken.

If you're interested in getting a 58 K-O lens, there are a couple on ebay.com at quite low BIN prices. As I said, these lenses have to be reshuttered before they can be used on a Century. The K-O shutter is a funny Copal 0 with the release at the rear. The wind lever sticks out from the side of the barrel, connects with a linkage from the body.

Re "I'll never be able to afford an X," that's my song. Funny thing is, most of the "Xs" I've wanted have eventually turned up a reasonable prices. If not reasonable, at least affordable. I still cringe when I think of how much I paid for my 35 Apo Grandy, had to sell another lens to be able to pay the bill.

Cheers,

Dan

luisalegria · Expire: 2018-01-18

There was also a 65mm/6.8 Wollensak Raptar I believe. Similar to the more common 90mm/6.8.
As per the spec it was made to cover 3 1/4 x 4 1/4, so would be pretty interesting for you as it would give a bit of movement.
Not very common, I haven't managed to grab one yet. Advantage of these is they seem to have been made into the 1950's so they should be coated.

I have seen the Leitmyer 65's around on US ebay. These seem to have been imported into the US by Burke and James, so its worth checking that name also.

A very uncommon one, which I have, is a 6.5cm Perle, probably by Boyer though there is no makers name. It comes on an Ernemann Cronos shutter which is an odd choice - its also a very badly made shutter IMHO. It covers 6x9, just. I think the Cronos shutters were used by some other makers into the 1930's after Ernemann merged into Zeiss Ikon, but I'm just guessing.

So look for Perle.

danfromm · Joined: 04 Sep 2011 Posts: 576

Luis, we've discussed your 65/6.8 Perle before. See http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=39147&start=15

It wasn't made by Boyer. Boyer's Perle is a Topogon type, maximum aperture f/9, its outer elements are nearly hemispheres, and never coated. Its hard to prove nonexistence but none of the Boyer catalogs I've seen mentions a 65/6.8 Perle. 60/9, claimed to cover 9x12 wide open, yes, 65/6.8, no. Yours is engraved "Perle Wide Angle," not Boyer's style at all.

That said, since it covers 2x3 Ian should certainly be alert for one.

luisalegria · Expire: 2018-01-18

No problem, that Perle is what it is, a mystery so far. If it doesnt look like a Boyer then it isn't. Curious that someone stole one of Boyers trademarks though.

Strangest thing about it is the Ernemann Cronos shutter. These should have been gone by the time someone thought to make interchangeable wide angles for 6x9. I have actually found several loose Ernemann's of this tiny size, with the same markings. They are uniformly awful. Trying to make one of them work properly.

BTW, Ian, fitting a Graflex roll film back on the Mini-Speed is no problem at all, if all thats wanted is to use the rangefinder. Unscrew the spring screws and the groundglass panel and spring assembly just comes off. This leaves a cavity where the roll holders fit like a glove. Just make something to hold the back in place. I use brass tabs that I screw in to the spring screw holes.

Not a good solution if you want to use a groundglass though.

From a bit of experience its a pain to use a roll holder with a Graflok back, swapping the groundglass and the film. The Adaptaroll as a slide-in unit works much more like a regular film back.

rawhead · Expire: 2014-04-29

Whoa, that Aerogon winner got a great deal; I've been looking for one of those cheap for a while!

"I'll never be able to afford an X"

That's what I've been thinking about the Noctilux for a while; this year I've made it my resolution to purchase one (sacrificing a crap ton of gear on hand, though Smile

Allow me some camera porn.

rawhead · Expire: 2014-04-29

Regarding the Pacemaker, if the Graphic back is the only thing setting you back, then why not just swap the back with your Century?

danfromm · Joined: 04 Sep 2011 Posts: 576

Rawhead, you may be thinking of the 2x3 Crown Graphic. The Century Graphic's back is integral, is part of the body molding. Can't be removed without sawing ... The Crown's back comes right off, IIRC its held on by four screws. Haven't thought that thought for a while so haven't looked at mine with back removal in mind.

You stinker, your Century is prettier than mine. Mine's an early one, has a painted steel front standard, not a spiffy stainless one like yours.

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

Hmm, some more options and great info to mull over, thanks guys.

Perle and Perigraphie, I'll keep an eye out for those.

If anyone has a 65mm or similar going spare, I'd be interested, or maybe a trade.

danfromm · Joined: 04 Sep 2011 Posts: 576

Ian, I've seen something like five 60/14 Perigraphes offered in the last three years, not all on eBay. All were in barrel. Catalogs of various vintages (~ 1912 through ~ 1950) give no indication that they were ever offered in shutter.

The lens' front and rear cells sit very close together and they are mounted in large slightly dished discs. To give you an idea of what they look like, here http://www.leboncoin.fr/image_son/406143420.htm?ca=12_s is a 90/14. It is in the same mount as the 60/14, and by the way my 60 is figured in my lens diary.

The 60 can't be put in shutter. It has to be front mounted. You can read about the gymnastics (= $$) involved in my lens diary.

I don't want to discourage you, but (a) decent wide angle lenses for 2x3 and larger formats are expensive and (b) making a lens in barrel usable on cameras that don't have focal plane shutters can cost as much as, sometimes more than, an equivalent lens in leaf shutter. Re (b), I've found economies 'cos I have so damned many barrel lenses with the same mounting threads. If you're not in that situation you should be very thoughtful when chasing lenses in barrel.

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

Yes Dan, I intend to be very careful. I'll keep waiting until the right lens at the right price comes along. I might get lucky and spot something like a Dallmeyer Wide Angle Anastigmat cheap, I did see a 3 inch one go for very little a while back. I don't have much money to spend so I need to spend it wisely.

I bought the Speed because I can put barrel lenses on it, but sadly, I haven't seen any suitable ones, so I think the focal plane shutter is a bit redundant and I might just keep the Century and sell the Speed, we shall see.

BTW, the Tominons from Polaroid oscilloscope cameras, they are in Copal Press Shutters. I know you are familiar with these, could you remind me of what these Press shutters in this size are useful for, I might grab one then look for a suitable lens to put in it.

rawhead · Expire: 2014-04-29

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

I forgot to ask, is that an APo-Grandagon rawhead? looks beautiful. Smile

Can any of you guys post some pics taken with some of the lenses you have suggested, it would be very useful for me to see some.

danfromm · Joined: 04 Sep 2011 Posts: 576

Ian, I haven't had any of the Polaroid Copal #0s, understand that they have restricted apertures. There were discussions about this years ago on the US LF forum http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/forum.php , some posters reported that there were ways to modify them to get full aperture. I b'lieve that Jim Galli, who posts there, was one of the people who did the modifications. If searching in the forum (use Google, not the forum's search function) gets you ask nothing, ask Jim. He's a good guy. I don't know whether their tube lengths conform to the #0 standard.

I have a couple of the Polaroid Copal #1s that hold 127/4.7 Tominons as used in, e.g., the Polaroid CU-4. These things' tubes are 22 mm long, 2 mm longer than the #1 standard. Oops! So they're best used with the lens that comes with them -- quite good on 2x3 -- or with 150/5.6 plasmat types because these, according to Eric Beltrando's calculations, aren't very sensitive to small errors in cell spacing.

I also have a couple of the Polaroid MP-4 Copal shutters. These have no diaphragm, so are usually inexpensive. And they have press focus. Just what's wanted for front-mounting as long as their top shutter speed of 1/125 can be lived with. AFAIK they're the only Copal Polaroid shutters with press focus.

About y'r Speed, Ian, it is ideal for process lenses that it can focus and for decent modern lenses in barrel. I've seen Xenars and Symmars in barrel sold, wrongly, as enlarging lenses. Not expensive;y 135 Symmar cost all of $32 delivered. Similarly, ancient and some modern Tessars in barrel. My 84/6.3 Krauss Tessar wasn't dear, and neither was my post-WW II 164/6.3 B&L Tessar. This last is coated, cost $25 at a camera show.

Understand, its been a while since I shopped hard for lenses. I have more than enough. My last lens purchase was a 45/9 CZJ Goerz Dagor and was a very lucky find. Lucky finds as written about in my lens diary are much scarcer now than when I was buying lotsa lenses.

rawhead · Expire: 2014-04-29

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

Thanks Dan. The restricted aperture wouldn't be a problem for me, I would only be shooting at smaller apertures anyways.

Thanks for the info about the shutters. Do you know how well the Tominon 75mm shoots at distance? It might be a useful wider lens until I can afford something better.

I'll keep looking for barrel lenses, only ones I have seen have been C-Claron 135s, those are dirt cheap, but are process lenses so probably not so hot at distance.

I'm not sure lenses longer than my 105mm Xenar interest me all that much, I rarely shoot longer than 50mm on digital or 35mm, I'm a wide angle guy.

danfromm · Joined: 04 Sep 2011 Posts: 576

Ian, the 75/4.5 Tominon is a reversed tessar type intended for use on 4x5 at magnifications from 2:1 to 6.5:1. It isn't intended for use at distance and, as an f/4.5 Tessar, isn't a wide angle lens. You'd be better off with a 75 from a 6x6 folder.

Some process lenses are superb at all distances. Dialyte type Apo-Nikkors, Apo-Artars, and Apo-Ronars, for example. There are few short ones, and the few short (100 mm or less) ones are narrow angle lenses that don't cover 2x3.

Wide angle guy, the best thing you can do is accumulate enough money to buy a decent w/a lens or two that will cover at least 2x3. I'm sorry, but there are no good inexpensive lenses much shorter than 100 mm that cover 2x3. Many search for these little magic bullets, few find 'em.

If you have a #0 shutter to spare -- cock and shoot, not press -- the Koni-Omega 58s and 60s may be your best bet. I don't know how much shipping to the UK would be, but there are a couple with BINs under $150 on ebay.com. Otherwise accept that you can't have top tier and wait patiently for a decent 65/6.8 Angulon or Optar/Raptar in shutter to turn up. Don't limit your search to ebay.co.uk, look at UK dealers (mrcad, mwclassic, ...) and especially ebay.com.

Good luck, have fun,

Dan

danfromm · Joined: 04 Sep 2011 Posts: 576

Here's the sort of thing you might have to settle for:

330859890490

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

Thanks Dan, I went into this suspecting there were no cheap but good wide angles for 2x3, and you confirmed it.

That Angulon would be great for my purposes I think, how does it compare in the IQ stakes with the Koni Hexanons or the Mamiya Universal/Press 65?

danfromm · Joined: 04 Sep 2011 Posts: 576

Ian, I can't report on the 65/6.5 Angulon from my own experience, but there's a partial answer to your question here: http://www.hevanet.com/cperez/MF_testing.html

Partial because he reports on the lenses shot on their native formats. So, for example, edge sharpness for the 58 K-O lenses he tested is at the edge of 6x7, not at the edge of 6x9.

The Angulon I pointed you at is being auctioned, has no bids yet. There's no telling what snipers, if any, will bid. Ever since I found Hammersnipe I've always sniped auctions, never entered a bid manually (and early).

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

Cheers Dan. I will research the Angulon, bound to be plenty of info and image samples. That one appeals to me as it would match the Linhof Xenar I also have.

Last night a Dallmeyer Wide Angle Anastigmat 6.5/3.25 inch (82.5mm) went cheap and the LVM says it's a good one, 6.5 is for focussing due to coma, designed to be shot f11-22. However, it's not that wide and covers 5x4 so I let someone who would make better use of it take it, and I'm unsure of the shutter it will fit too. I'm not sure what shutter it was in, hard to tell from the picture, maybe a Koilos as it has a shiny front plate.

I'd rather save my pennies until I have enough for a known good lens than trawl through a load of mysterious cheapies, I made that mistake with my 35mm aquisitions.

I've got an itch to have one of those Grandagons though, maybe I can sell a kidney Wink

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

I lost on this mystery lens, I only put 11 bucks on it. No idea what it is, but looks wide angle and it will fit the working rimset Compur Rapid I have from a broken 6x9 folder, someone might have got a bargain or might have got junk.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Special-lens-fit-to-compur-maybe-wide-angle-angulon-rodenstock-schneider-/200880181748?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&nma=true&si=jgzd8bU8TjMZnji8x4sSdte5SRI%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Any idea what it might be, Dan?

danfromm · Joined: 04 Sep 2011 Posts: 576

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

Thanks Dan, a mystery lens for sure, I hope someone puts it to good use. I suspected it might be an oscilloscope lens.

Interesting about the Largor. I keep harbouring a longing for a 5x7 camera I can put my Ross WA Xpress 4/5" on. Smile

rawhead · Expire: 2014-04-29

I don't know what a good price for it is, but there is a good looking Angulon 65 on the 'bay now:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Schneider-Kreuznach-Angulon-1-6-8-65mm-Graflex-Synchro-Compur-/190786288243?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item2c6bbfba73