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What does the EBC in EBC Fujinon lenses stand for?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:11 am    Post subject: What does the EBC in EBC Fujinon lenses stand for? Reply with quote

A quick look on google didn't reveal an answer. Probably something simple, does anybody here know?

Thanks.


PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Electron Beam Coating.
Supposedly an 11 (?) layer multi-coating. That's what I think I've read.


PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What does it stand for? Because it has no chair! Laughing

I'll get my coat.


PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

martinsmith99 wrote:
What does it stand for? Because it has no chair! Laughing

I'll get my coat.


Smile Rolling Eyes


PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Odd cause my Fujinon EBC 35 f/1.9 flares like crazy at f/1.9. It all calms down when at f/2.8


PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dok wrote:
Odd cause my Fujinon EBC 35 f/1.9 flares like crazy at f/1.9. It all calms down when at f/2.8


Fast wide angle that flares at wide open... not too surprising. There is more to lens flaring than coating can overcome at times. Especially with some fast lens designs.
Use it as a character when you can. Other times simply stop down one. Smile


PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have 2.2/50, 1.9/50 and 1.6/50 X-Fujinons, they don't have EBC on them, does this mean they have a different coating?


PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm I suppose somewhere on the net someone has compared coatings on lenses...would ebc be better/worse/equal to others Question


PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

F16SUNSHINE wrote:


Fast wide angle that flares at wide open... not too surprising. There is more to lens flaring than coating can overcome at times. Especially with some fast lens designs.
Use it as a character when you can. Other times simply stop down one. Smile

Yes of course Smile It was just a way to tell that, EBC or not, my copy is not magical when it comes to flare. And actually, sharpness is pretty mediocre at 1.9 while much better at 2.8. It don't consider this lens to be really usable at 1.9.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excalibur wrote:
erm I suppose somewhere on the net someone has compared coatings on lenses...would ebc be better/worse/equal to others :?:


Speaking of contemporary (1970's) coatings, the EBC had more layers (11) than any other, and therefore could be considered the technologically most advanced. In contemporary tests, however, the Super-Multi-Coated Takumars (7 layers) were seen as more resistent to flare than equivalent EBC Fujinons. (On the other hand, in my opinion the EBC Fujinons have far superior colour rendition, so who knows, maybe Fuji optimized for this)

I've also read somewhere that Zeiss licensed the Super-Multi-Coating technology from Asahi Pentax, and that became the original basis for T* coatings. They have probably developed it further since without changing the name, so I would guess that the best coatings today might be Zeiss T* or Fuji's Super EBC. But as multi-coating has long been standard in camera lenses, few manufacturers bother to specifically advertise it anymore. (Actually I also read somewhere that Fuji would have developed the EBC coating technology for the 1964 Tokio Olympics but didn't consider putting it into 35mm camera lenses until Asahi Pentax started doing it and making a big fuss about the S-M-C technology. But, take both of the read somewhere comments with a grain of salt, I can't find any authoritative source for this info)


PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have also read about a link between SMC and T* but can't remember where I read it.

Arkku, do you know if the X-Fujinons 2.2/50, 1.9/50 and 1.6/50 have the EBC coating? My copies don't have EBC written on them.

BTW, I have a Ross Xpress 4inch lens from the 1950s that has a purple coating and is totally flare resistant even with the sun in frame. Small front glass diameter helps but I was amazed how good the coating(s) are.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
I have 2.2/50, 1.9/50 and 1.6/50 X-Fujinons, they don't have EBC on them, does this mean they have a different coating?


I have two different 50mm f/1.6 X-Fujinons, one with EBC written on it and one without. Looking very closely at reflections in the coatings, the one that says EBC has slightly dimmer reflections and the reflections are of slightly different colour. This could perhaps be attributed to sample variation or different amount of wear on the lenses, but I would guess that the ones that don't say EBC are not coated quite as well as true EBC ones. I think the non-EBC versions of X-Fujinons are still multicoated, however, maybe just not as many layers

An alternative theory would be that Fuji used EBC coatings but decided to drop the name, e.g., because multi-coating had become commonplace or because they wished to reserve the EBC name for higher end lenses. But I would lean slightly more towards the not as many layers explanation.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I agree with your leaning, I think they used EBC on the more expensive lenses and not on the cheaper ones like the 2.2/50. The 1.6 says DM in green, maybe that is the coating denominator?


PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
The 1.6 says DM in green, maybe that is the coating denominator?


No, the DM signifies that it supports automatic aperture control, according to the Fujica AX-5 manual. I don't know what that's short for, though.

But anyhow, it's not mutually exclusive with EBC; the one I have says EBC X-Fujinon 1:1.6 f=50mm DM


PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just waiting for the NEX adapter to arrive then I can try my three Fujinons, I am looking for a good working Fujica to use with them too. My reason for buying them (they were dirt cheap, I only paid 6ukp for the 1.6) is to use with Velvia on nature subjects.

I'll have to dig them out and take a picture of them.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few facts from here and there:

Carl Zeiss developed lens coatings applied by vaporization in the vacuum between 1934 and 1936. T* coatings for Zeiss Contax and Hasselblad lenses were introduced in the fall of 1972 and explicitly marketed as such in 1974 as a reaction against Pentax SMC ads, it is said. Most Pentax SMC lenses were manufactured from glass furnished by Hoya who had their own HMC (highly multi-colored) label.

According to the Japanese company history of Fuji Photo Film, Fuji introduced their EBC multicoating process in December 1971 for one of their 8mm movie camera lenses. The idea was to have a movie lens where the mathematical aperture F number was the same as the actual light transmission T stop, because 99.8 % of the light were transmitted. In September 1972, the first EBC Fujinon lenses were manufactured for the Fujica ST 801. Apart from using up to 11 different color layers instead of a maximum of 7 layers for the Hoya and Pentax SMC lenses, the application of the color layers with the aid of an electron beam made the use of special metal coatings (like Zirkonium Oxide) feasible that become applicable only at high temperatures. Color layers must not be visible on visual inspection; the better their refractive index is matched to that of the glass element the less visible they are. Therefore, some of the faster EBC lenses may seem to have only one or two layers. What remains visible will act like a filter and will help to balance the overall color rendition. Lenses with many glass elements of a certain kind will render warmer colors and may require a visible bluish coating to raise the "color temperature." Fuji manufactured their own glass in their Odawara plant south of Yokohama. It is known for its neutral and bright color rendition, whereas the amateur market also asked for pasty-like colors "as if painted," catered for by other lens manufacturers.

Fuji equipped its M42 and FX bayonet cameras with three different kinds of lenses. Non-EBC lenses with single, double or triple coating were kept in their product line as a cheaper alternative to EBC lenses. They have a merit of their own. Except for difficult lighting conditions like front-lighting, you will not notice much difference. Shooting a Kodak color chart in controlled lighting, you will see that the subtler color shades are less well transmitted. An EBC lens outperforms a non-EBC lens in bright sunlight or cloud cast situations. A non-EBC lens may be a better performer in available light or portrait work as it lightens up the colors. Fuji also sold Fujinar lenses with single or double coating (mostly purple-bluish) in heavier metal tubes. They may have been produced by Komura (Nittoh Kogaku).

X-Fujinon lenses were manufactured both as EBC and non-EBC. A non-EBC X-Fujinon lens nevertheless is a (multi-) coated lens. You cannot manufacture a zoom lens with many glass elements without an effective multicoating. The 3.5-4.2 / 29-47mm and the 3.5-4.5 / 43-75mm lenses have an excellent color rendition that cannot be distinguished from EBC lenses although they are not labelled as EBC lenses.

I hope that this information is helpful.


Last edited by Fujinonuser on Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:54 pm; edited 2 times in total


PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's very useful, cheers.

The Hoya HMC coating is excellent, BTW.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow Fujinon user did you write all that from information in your head or copy it from somewhere Question Cool


PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
That's very useful, cheers.

The Hoya HMC coating is excellent, BTW.

I wonder if the Tokina "RMC" coating is identical to the Hoya HMC coating?

I would love to see one and the same lens with all the different HMC, EBC, SMC, T, T*,... coatings to see the different effects on color balance and contast.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arkku wrote:

I've also read somewhere that Zeiss licensed the Super-Multi-Coating technology from Asahi Pentax, and that became the original basis for T* coatings.


I doubt that, but I will ask "those who know". Wink
Do you have a source link for this info?


PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orio wrote:
Arkku wrote:

I've also read somewhere that Zeiss licensed the Super-Multi-Coating technology from Asahi Pentax, and that became the original basis for T* coatings.


I doubt that, but I will ask "those who know". Wink
Do you have a source link for this info?


I will say that is was more a join development when Zeiss was searching for a Japanese partner in early 70s for cheaper production facilities and I got the feeling that they first talked with Pentax and then settled with Yashica.

The Distagon 28/2 clone Pentax 28/2 might be one of the results of this "exchange"....


PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is also Vivitar's VMC (Vivitar Multi-Coating). I doubt that it's a particular formula since lenses marked with it were sourced from Cosina, Tokina, Komine, and probably others. The two lenses I have, however, do look distinctly different than any SMC, HMC, EBC, or Zeiss T I've seen.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ForenSeil wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
That's very useful, cheers.

The Hoya HMC coating is excellent, BTW.

I wonder if the Tokina "RMC" coating is identical to the Hoya HMC coating?

I would love to see one and the same lens with all the different HMC, EBC, SMC, T, T*,... coatings to see the different effects on color balance and contast.


I think it is, Hoya supplied glass to Tokina and the Hoya prime lenses are rebadged Tokinas.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keysersoze27 wrote:
Orio wrote:
Arkku wrote:

I've also read somewhere that Zeiss licensed the Super-Multi-Coating technology from Asahi Pentax, and that became the original basis for T* coatings.


I doubt that, but I will ask "those who know". Wink
Do you have a source link for this info?


I will say that is was more a join development when Zeiss was searching for a Japanese partner in early 70s for cheaper production facilities and I got the feeling that they first talked with Pentax and then settled with Yashica.
The Distagon 28/2 clone Pentax 28/2 might be one of the results of this "exchange"....


What I did know, is that the T* coating was developed for the Arriflex cinematographic lenses at the end of the '60s / beginning of the '70s
and then ported over to the photographic lenses.
Amongst the first photo lenses to receive the T* treatment were the Zeiss lenses for the Hasselblad system which date beginning of the 70's
At the time, Zeiss was stopping the production of Contarex lenses and focused for a while only on producing for Hasselblad and Rollei.
This should date the first applications of T* coating on photo lenses around 1972-1973.
I think that the absolute first photo lens to receive the T* coating was the Contarex version
of Glatzel's 15mm f/3.5 Distagon, a prototype that never entered the production line in the Contarex version
(but was shortly later produced for both Rollei and Contax/Yashica).
Also to my knowledge, the first T* lenses for Hasselblad were simply marked T without *.
I really doubt that Pentax had anything to do with the production of Arriflex lenses.
But, I will ask. Smile