The Agfa Serial Number Problem

[16:9]

We've done some work on this already, but before we get too far into it, can anyone shed any light on Agfa's deliberately obtuse serial number system?

It's intriguingly non-random.

[kds315*]

THIELE may have done something on them, need to have a look.
I cannot remeber having seen any decoding of that.

[16:9]

Unfortunately key documents are still tied up at FoMu. Thiele has some information with regard to taking lenses that is just enough to show why it's still a problem.

It was Agfa's intention NOT to allow serials to reveal production details, but it's likely there is some Rosetta Stone document that translates them into something meaningful.

[16:9]

One theory (with regard to dating the enlarger and industrial lenses) is that early period lenses were assigned a letter according to series - ie, V for Varioscop, A-G for industrial and macro lenses, etc - and later lenses dropped the letter in favour of a six-numeral system. However, the chronology doesn't add up, and there are many interesting inconsistencies.

For instance, Colostar-N have F-series serial numbers above 75mm, and no letter prefix below 75mm. Even this inconsistency is inconsistent, because the 77mm also drops the number-prefix.

[simple.joy]

Hello and thanks for the interest! As Mark has mentioned, I'm trying to help him out on the deltalenses project, as far as my limited time, knowledge and experience allows for it...

What Thiele and a former Agfa employee were able to find out is stated in his book "Große Nummernsammlung Photoobjektive". According to his information Agfa used their regular numbering system from 000001 to 999999 twice before switching to a letter + 5-digit number system. The letters A, B, C, D, G, K, L, N, O, P, R, S, T, U, X and Z are relatively well documented in the tables of Thieles book. They all were used for different Agfa taking lenses. (I recommend purchasing this interesting book, if you want to know a lot more details on the production of Agfa taking lenses.) However the letters F and M only show one single entry there and E, H, I, J, Q, V, W and Y are missing completely.

Agfa enlarger lenses seem to use different numbering circles for the most part (5-digit only | one letter + 4 digits | 3 digits etc.) but a couple of them (as Mark has eluded to) seem to use a missing part of the regular system, like the Solinar S 60, 105 mm, the Color-Magnolar 60, 75 mm, the Color-Magnolar II 60 and 105 mm which all use V or W + 5 digits. We tried to give an overview in the table at the bottom of the Agfa-Gevaert article:
https://deltalenses.com/index.php/2022/03/21/agfa-enlarger-lenses/

As mentioned in the article I have the suspicion that the M lenses might be some kind of prototypes or custom made lenses and so far I wasn't able to find a second sample of any one of them. That's pure speculation though and a second sample of either one of these lenses might be enough to contradict this theory. So, if anyone knows of such a sample or additional lenses with an M number, which appear to be part of a regular mass production, we would really love to know about it.

[simple.joy]

A couple of additional things that may be of note:
Besides FoMu (photo museum in Belgium) there also seems to be a German photo museum called "Deutsches Kameramuseum" in Pegnitz, which got quite a significant amount of Agfa materials, when the company went out of business. According to the curator Kurt Tauber, they have "a lot of Agfa stuff, but no one to categorize and document it" so all of it is still waiting in their depot.

I had a short conversation with Thiele some time ago, who was very helpful, but confirmed that he doesn't know anything else about this part of Agfa and that it seems like there basically was never any real research or archiving work done in this area (probably due to a lack of interest for lenses, most people regard as mediocre at best). Even the connection to Steinheil - who supposedly were responsible for the manufacturing of many of those Agfa enlarging lenses - and Staeble (who was later acquired by Agfa) is not well documented.

This is what some of the Agfa M-lenses look like by the way:

Some of them seem to be triplets, and some 5/3 Heliar designs, typical of the Colostar line. One of them is even labeled "Colostar"

I'm sure there must be someone else who knows more about these parts of Agfa in Germany, but so far I wasn't able to find anyone unfortunately.

[16:9]

Calling all owners of weird Agfa lenses - please post your pictures and serials here! Perhaps that's a separate thread . . .

[calvin83]

Yes. Pretty sure the M serial lenses are not mass-produced.

Afga lenses are my love too. I have few Ambiflex/Selectaflex lenses but I am still looking for someone who are able to make me an adapter using the camera mount. These are the best build quality lenses i have ever seen on Germany consumer grade lenses.

[16:9]

I use a few people in the UK to do that kind of work - let me know if you really need it.
In particular we're trying to track Agfa industrial, enlarger and repro lenses - the taking lenses seem to follow a different scheme, but each might cast light on the other.

[calvin83]

Thanks.

The taking lens has a more simple scheme i believe. Either 5 digits or 6 digits starts with 0 and above. Except the 50/2.8, most Ambiflex/Selectaflex lenses starts with 0 or and the early one with 5 digits only. I believe they use the same scheme for some of the prototypes too.

The Ambi Silette has similar scheme with 5 digits or 6 digits SNs. Some of them appears with alphabetic pre-fix like the one below starts with "S".
https://oneofmanycameras.com/products/agfa-50mm-f2-8-color-solinar

[16:9]

A - Unknown
B#### - Color Solagon DII 80mm only (the DII 90mm is #####)
C#### - Color Solagon DI 70mm only
D - Unknown
E#### - Color Solagon DII 60mm only
F#### - Colostar N 75-110mm only (the 77mm and 47-70mm are #####; there is a 42mm which is ######)
FN#### - Minilab lenses
G#### - Colostar U 90-100mm only

These seem to comprise a series of special purpose lenses bundled with industrial equipment and not sold as standalone items.

[16:9]

These series also seem well defined:

M#### - Prototype or short-run industrial lenses (also seen as nM)

8506/### and 8508/### - MiniLab optics in combination with FN####.

V##### - Magnolar 60mm (and rebranded Version 1 Solinar S) for Varioscop

W####- Solinar S 105 for Varioscop

[16:9]

And the following lenses didn't use letter prefixes at all:

- Late Colostar in longer focal lengths (####)

- All Color-Magnolar and Magnolar 105mm for Varioscop (#####)

- Colostar N 38mm (######)

- Colostar N below 70mm (#####)

[16:9]

We're still piecing together the chronology, but at this point I'm skeptical of the assertion that the switch to and from letter prefixes is entirely chronological - largely because we see ranges sliced horizontally across decades, with the removal of a letter prefix designating a range of focal lengths rather than a production run.

If anything the chronology seems to show a drift away from the letter prefix system for industrial and enlarger lenses during the late 1970s, but even that isn't clear.

Within a range - for instance Colostar N - we see a probable correlation between low F#### numbers and all-black bodies and high F#### numbers and later silver/black bodies, but even this isn't conclusive.

What we're trying to untangle, therefore, is a (deliberately?) inconsistent layering of three nomenclatures, each partially deployed:

1. Chronological (switching to and from letter prefixes, with numbers escalating over time in the conventional fashion)
2. Typological (designating end-uses and lens models)
3. Distinguishing ranges of focal lengths.

[simple.joy]

Here are a couple of more recent images taken with the Agfa M 3525 6/3 (triplet) lens:

Rad color! by simple.joy, on Flickr

Pearly gates by simple.joy, on Flickr

The first one is a single shot, the second one a focus stack of 3-4 images, because it's really close. (Maybe too close to not use this lens in reverse, but I was curious, how it would do...)

I'm still puzzled... Why wouldn't Agfa produce this lens in series? What was it intended for? There's an Agfa patent document for a triplet enlarger lens but as far as I'm aware they never made one.