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no-X
Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 2495
Location: Budejky, Czech Republic
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 Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 11:11 am Post subject: Color cast of sever Helios lenses - test |
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no-X wrote:
Various Helios models have various coating and glass. Combination of these factors gives them unique color cast, which can be helpful or annoying...
Here's a short test. Conditions:
- overcast sky
- f/2.8
- the same exposure time (1/640), the same ISO (100)
- the same settings for RAW conversion
- I must decide which lens I'll use for white balance - I used 44-3 MC, because it's considered to be quite neutral (compared to other helios lenses)
you can compare: relative color cast, contrast, light transmittance
you can't compare: absolute color cast (it can depend on white balance and lighting conditions), sharpness (pictures are scaled down, I didn't use tripod, so focus is sometimes about 0,5mm off)
lens used (coating: first color = front element, second color = inner elements, third color = rear element):
Helios-44 5,8cm red-P KMZ M39 (silver, 13 blades) - strong violet + blue/violet + light cerise coating
Helios-44-2 58/2 KMZ M42 pre-1970 (N00xxx) - neutral + violet + neutral coating
Helios-44-2 58/2 MMZ M42 1973 - neutral + yellow + neutral coating
Helios-44-3 MC 58/2 M42 1993 - light blue + blue/magenta/green + neutral coating
Helios-77M MC 50/1.8 M42 1992 - red + green/blue + green coating
Biotar red-T 58/2 manual (17 blades) M42 - azure + several shades of blue-purple + light periwinkle
Biotar red-T 58/2 pre-set (12 blades) M42 - many close shades of light blue/light violet/periwinkle
1. Helios-44 5,8cm red-P KMZ M39 (silver, 13 blades)
2. Helios-44-2 58/2 KMZ M42 pre-1970 (N00xxx)
3. Helios-44-2 58/2 MMZ M42 1973
4. Helios-44-3 MC 58/2 M42 1993
5. Helios-77M MC 50/1.8 M42 1992
6. Biotar red-T 58/2 manual (17 blades) M42
7. Biotar red-T 58/2 pre-set (12 blades) M42
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aoleg
Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Posts: 1389
Location: Berlin, DE
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| Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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aoleg wrote:
Interesting. The test seems about right; my MC Helios-77M is about neutral, as is MC Jupiter-9. However, the older Jupiter-9 with strong cherry/magenta coatings exhibits strong green-yellow color cast, very similar to your first test picture.
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estudleon
Joined: 15 May 2008
Posts: 3754
Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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estudleon wrote:
Thanks for sharing.
Looking the test, I prefer the Helios-44-2 58/2 KMZ M42 pre-1970 (N00xxx).
Very sharp.
I have a 44-3 of 1986 and the front refl is a strong yellow, pale green, magenta, light blue and strog green in the last element. Yellow cast.
Rino.
_________________
Konica 2,8/100
CZJ: 4/20, 2,4/35, 1,8/50 aus jena, 3,5/135MC, Pentacon 1,8/50
Pentax S-M-C-1,4/50
Helios 44-3
Mamiya 2,8/135
Misc. : jupiter 9
Stuff used:
A) SRL
Alpa 10 D - kern macro Switar 1,9/50 -black, Kilffit apochromat 2/100.
Asahi pentax spotmatic super takumar 1,4/50
Contaflex super B tessar 2,8/50 Pro-tessar 115
Leica R3 electronic summicron 2/50 elmarit 2,8/35
Konica Autoreflex 3 (2 black and chrome one), TC, T4. 2,8/24, 3,5/28 not MC and MC, 1,8/40, 1,4/50, 1,7/50 MC and not MC, 1,8/85, 3,2/135, 3,5/135, 4/200
Minolta XG9 2,8/35, 2/45, 3,5/135
Nikkormat FTn 1,4/50, 2,8/135
Fujica ST 801, 605, 705n. 3,5/19, 1,4/50, 1,8/55, 4/85, 3,5/135.
Praktica MTL 5 and a lot of M42 lenses.
Voigtlander. Bessamatic m, bessamatix de luxe, bessamatic cs, ultramatic and ultramatic cs.
Skoparex 3,5/35, skopagon 2/40, skopar 2,8/50, skopar X 2,8/50, super lanthar (out of catalogue) 2,8/50, dinarex 3,4/90, dinarex 4,8/100, super dinarex 4/135, super dinarex 4/200, zoomar 2,8/36-83, portrait lens 0, 1 and 2. Curtagon 4/28 and 2,8/35
Canon AV1, 1,8/50
Rolleiflex SL35 and SL35 E. 2,8/35 angulon, 2,8/35 distagon, 1,4/55 rolleinar, 1,8/50 planar, 4/135 tessar, 2,8/135 rolleinar, x2 rollei, M42 to rollei adap.
Etc.
RF
Yashica Minister III
Voightlander Vito, vitomatic I, Vito C, etc.
Leica M. M2, M3 (d.s.) and M4. Schenider 3,4/21, 2/35 summaron 2,8/35 (with eyes). Summicron 2/35 (8 elements with eyes), 2/35 chrome, 2/35 black, 1,4/35 pre asph and aspheric - old -, 2/40 summicron, 2,8/50 elmar, 2/50 7 elements, 2/50 DR, 2/50 - minolta version, 1,4/50 summilux 1966 version, 1,4/75 summilux, 2/90 large version, 2/90 reduced version of 1987, 2,8/90 elmarit large version, 4/135 elmar. |
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martinsmith99
Joined: 31 Aug 2008
Posts: 6943
Location: S Glos, UK
Expire: 2013-11-18
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| Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 9:19 am Post subject: |
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martinsmith99 wrote:
Interesting test. The 00 44-2 looks really good. My 44-2 is a later model and it looks like your 1973 44-2. I've got a silver 13 blade 44 but it has rear elements stolen from a 44-2. I have the 10 blade biotar and it is warmer and slightly sharper.
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no-X
Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 2495
Location: Budejky, Czech Republic
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| Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 9:54 am Post subject: |
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no-X wrote:
Biotars have always warmer tint, but they have some nuances... early post war manual T biotars are slightly more purple (=more greenish tint) than the pre-set T biotars. Non-T pre-set biotars ale also more purplish, but the tint is lighter. Latest Biotars (semi-auto, no T marking, wavy aperture ring) have different coating, which is somewhere between T and non T in its color.
But it doesn't mean much, because my repairman told me, that he noticed, that even two identical biotar versions can have different coating - not only the tint, but also it's hardness. Some are very soft, another are hardened...
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djmike
Joined: 01 Apr 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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djmike wrote:
Nice test, indeed. And I am looking forward to more photo comparison. Mike
_________________
DSLR: Canon 400D
SLR: Nikon FM2 + Canon A-1 + Canon AE1-P + Praktica MTL-5B + Pentax Spotmatic F + Fujica ST801 + Voigtlander Bassematic + Voigtlander Vito + Rollei 35S + Rolleiflex SL35 ME + Canon QL17 GIII + Olympus Pen EE-3
Lenses
M42: CZJ Flektogon 35/2.4 + CZJ Flektogon Zebra 35/2.8 + CZJ Pancolar 50/1.8 + CZJ Sonnar 135/3.5 + CZJ Tessar 50/2.8 Chrome + Pentacon 135/2.8 + Pentacon 50/1.8 + SMC Takumar 50/1.4 + SMC Takumar 55/2 + SMC Takumar 135/3.5 + Fujinon 55/1.8 + Jupiter-9 85/2 + Jupiter-37A 135/3.5 + Helios 44-6 58/2
Nikor: Nikkor 50/1.4 + Nikkor 28/3.5 + Nikkor 35-105 Zoom + 36-72 Series E Zoom
Canon: Canon FD + 28/2.8 + 50/1.8 + Canon 35-105 Macro Zoom
Other: Rollei Planar HFT 50/1.8
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estudleon
Joined: 15 May 2008
Posts: 3754
Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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estudleon wrote:
| estudleon wrote: |
Thanks for sharing.
Looking the test, I prefer the Helios-44-2 58/2 KMZ M42 pre-1970 (N00xxx).
Very sharp.
I have a 44-3 of 1986 and the front refl is a strong yellow, pale green, magenta, light blue and strog green in the last element. Yellow cast.
Rino. |
I'm wrong.
The real best to me is the Helios-44 5,8cm red-P KMZ M39 (silver, 13 blades). More contrast than the rest of the helios.
Rino.
_________________
Konica 2,8/100
CZJ: 4/20, 2,4/35, 1,8/50 aus jena, 3,5/135MC, Pentacon 1,8/50
Pentax S-M-C-1,4/50
Helios 44-3
Mamiya 2,8/135
Misc. : jupiter 9
Stuff used:
A) SRL
Alpa 10 D - kern macro Switar 1,9/50 -black, Kilffit apochromat 2/100.
Asahi pentax spotmatic super takumar 1,4/50
Contaflex super B tessar 2,8/50 Pro-tessar 115
Leica R3 electronic summicron 2/50 elmarit 2,8/35
Konica Autoreflex 3 (2 black and chrome one), TC, T4. 2,8/24, 3,5/28 not MC and MC, 1,8/40, 1,4/50, 1,7/50 MC and not MC, 1,8/85, 3,2/135, 3,5/135, 4/200
Minolta XG9 2,8/35, 2/45, 3,5/135
Nikkormat FTn 1,4/50, 2,8/135
Fujica ST 801, 605, 705n. 3,5/19, 1,4/50, 1,8/55, 4/85, 3,5/135.
Praktica MTL 5 and a lot of M42 lenses.
Voigtlander. Bessamatic m, bessamatix de luxe, bessamatic cs, ultramatic and ultramatic cs.
Skoparex 3,5/35, skopagon 2/40, skopar 2,8/50, skopar X 2,8/50, super lanthar (out of catalogue) 2,8/50, dinarex 3,4/90, dinarex 4,8/100, super dinarex 4/135, super dinarex 4/200, zoomar 2,8/36-83, portrait lens 0, 1 and 2. Curtagon 4/28 and 2,8/35
Canon AV1, 1,8/50
Rolleiflex SL35 and SL35 E. 2,8/35 angulon, 2,8/35 distagon, 1,4/55 rolleinar, 1,8/50 planar, 4/135 tessar, 2,8/135 rolleinar, x2 rollei, M42 to rollei adap.
Etc.
RF
Yashica Minister III
Voightlander Vito, vitomatic I, Vito C, etc.
Leica M. M2, M3 (d.s.) and M4. Schenider 3,4/21, 2/35 summaron 2,8/35 (with eyes). Summicron 2/35 (8 elements with eyes), 2/35 chrome, 2/35 black, 1,4/35 pre asph and aspheric - old -, 2/40 summicron, 2,8/50 elmar, 2/50 7 elements, 2/50 DR, 2/50 - minolta version, 1,4/50 summilux 1966 version, 1,4/75 summilux, 2/90 large version, 2/90 reduced version of 1987, 2,8/90 elmarit large version, 4/135 elmar. |
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estudleon
Joined: 15 May 2008
Posts: 3754
Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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estudleon wrote:
The test is a great job, like yours.
And I can suggest, let me please, that if we should have a pic of the elephant taken with another lens whose rendering is known, we can compare and see better what is the rendering of each helio.
Rino.
_________________
Konica 2,8/100
CZJ: 4/20, 2,4/35, 1,8/50 aus jena, 3,5/135MC, Pentacon 1,8/50
Pentax S-M-C-1,4/50
Helios 44-3
Mamiya 2,8/135
Misc. : jupiter 9
Stuff used:
A) SRL
Alpa 10 D - kern macro Switar 1,9/50 -black, Kilffit apochromat 2/100.
Asahi pentax spotmatic super takumar 1,4/50
Contaflex super B tessar 2,8/50 Pro-tessar 115
Leica R3 electronic summicron 2/50 elmarit 2,8/35
Konica Autoreflex 3 (2 black and chrome one), TC, T4. 2,8/24, 3,5/28 not MC and MC, 1,8/40, 1,4/50, 1,7/50 MC and not MC, 1,8/85, 3,2/135, 3,5/135, 4/200
Minolta XG9 2,8/35, 2/45, 3,5/135
Nikkormat FTn 1,4/50, 2,8/135
Fujica ST 801, 605, 705n. 3,5/19, 1,4/50, 1,8/55, 4/85, 3,5/135.
Praktica MTL 5 and a lot of M42 lenses.
Voigtlander. Bessamatic m, bessamatix de luxe, bessamatic cs, ultramatic and ultramatic cs.
Skoparex 3,5/35, skopagon 2/40, skopar 2,8/50, skopar X 2,8/50, super lanthar (out of catalogue) 2,8/50, dinarex 3,4/90, dinarex 4,8/100, super dinarex 4/135, super dinarex 4/200, zoomar 2,8/36-83, portrait lens 0, 1 and 2. Curtagon 4/28 and 2,8/35
Canon AV1, 1,8/50
Rolleiflex SL35 and SL35 E. 2,8/35 angulon, 2,8/35 distagon, 1,4/55 rolleinar, 1,8/50 planar, 4/135 tessar, 2,8/135 rolleinar, x2 rollei, M42 to rollei adap.
Etc.
RF
Yashica Minister III
Voightlander Vito, vitomatic I, Vito C, etc.
Leica M. M2, M3 (d.s.) and M4. Schenider 3,4/21, 2/35 summaron 2,8/35 (with eyes). Summicron 2/35 (8 elements with eyes), 2/35 chrome, 2/35 black, 1,4/35 pre asph and aspheric - old -, 2/40 summicron, 2,8/50 elmar, 2/50 7 elements, 2/50 DR, 2/50 - minolta version, 1,4/50 summilux 1966 version, 1,4/75 summilux, 2/90 large version, 2/90 reduced version of 1987, 2,8/90 elmarit large version, 4/135 elmar. |
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martinsmith99
Joined: 31 Aug 2008
Posts: 6943
Location: S Glos, UK
Expire: 2013-11-18
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| Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 10:56 am Post subject: |
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martinsmith99 wrote:
| estudleon wrote: |
The test is a great job, like yours.
And I can suggest, let me please, that if we should have a pic of the elephant taken with another lens whose rendering is known, we can compare and see better what is the rendering of each helio. |
The problem with that is that it is an outdoor test so lighting would be different.
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LucisPictor
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 17633
Location: Oberhessen, Germany / Maidstone ('95-'96)
Expire: 2013-12-03
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| Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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LucisPictor wrote:
That's an amazing difference!
Not really a problem for RAW-shooters, but it can be essential for film shooters.
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Carsten, former Moderator 
Things ON SALE
Carsten = "KAPCTEH" = "Karusutenu" | T-shirt?.........................My photos from Emilia: http://www.schouler.net/emilia/emilia2011.html
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Old list: http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=65 (Not up-to-date, sorry!) | http://www.lucispictor.de | http://www.alensaweek.wordpress.com |
http://www.retrocamera.de |
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estudleon
Joined: 15 May 2008
Posts: 3754
Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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estudleon wrote:
With color balance in PP and pacience you can work with each one and make it like you want to. At least i did it with the pics of the test, perhaps with draw you can do a different (or easily) way, i don't know.
Rino.
_________________
Konica 2,8/100
CZJ: 4/20, 2,4/35, 1,8/50 aus jena, 3,5/135MC, Pentacon 1,8/50
Pentax S-M-C-1,4/50
Helios 44-3
Mamiya 2,8/135
Misc. : jupiter 9
Stuff used:
A) SRL
Alpa 10 D - kern macro Switar 1,9/50 -black, Kilffit apochromat 2/100.
Asahi pentax spotmatic super takumar 1,4/50
Contaflex super B tessar 2,8/50 Pro-tessar 115
Leica R3 electronic summicron 2/50 elmarit 2,8/35
Konica Autoreflex 3 (2 black and chrome one), TC, T4. 2,8/24, 3,5/28 not MC and MC, 1,8/40, 1,4/50, 1,7/50 MC and not MC, 1,8/85, 3,2/135, 3,5/135, 4/200
Minolta XG9 2,8/35, 2/45, 3,5/135
Nikkormat FTn 1,4/50, 2,8/135
Fujica ST 801, 605, 705n. 3,5/19, 1,4/50, 1,8/55, 4/85, 3,5/135.
Praktica MTL 5 and a lot of M42 lenses.
Voigtlander. Bessamatic m, bessamatix de luxe, bessamatic cs, ultramatic and ultramatic cs.
Skoparex 3,5/35, skopagon 2/40, skopar 2,8/50, skopar X 2,8/50, super lanthar (out of catalogue) 2,8/50, dinarex 3,4/90, dinarex 4,8/100, super dinarex 4/135, super dinarex 4/200, zoomar 2,8/36-83, portrait lens 0, 1 and 2. Curtagon 4/28 and 2,8/35
Canon AV1, 1,8/50
Rolleiflex SL35 and SL35 E. 2,8/35 angulon, 2,8/35 distagon, 1,4/55 rolleinar, 1,8/50 planar, 4/135 tessar, 2,8/135 rolleinar, x2 rollei, M42 to rollei adap.
Etc.
RF
Yashica Minister III
Voightlander Vito, vitomatic I, Vito C, etc.
Leica M. M2, M3 (d.s.) and M4. Schenider 3,4/21, 2/35 summaron 2,8/35 (with eyes). Summicron 2/35 (8 elements with eyes), 2/35 chrome, 2/35 black, 1,4/35 pre asph and aspheric - old -, 2/40 summicron, 2,8/50 elmar, 2/50 7 elements, 2/50 DR, 2/50 - minolta version, 1,4/50 summilux 1966 version, 1,4/75 summilux, 2/90 large version, 2/90 reduced version of 1987, 2,8/90 elmarit large version, 4/135 elmar. |
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dimitrygo
Joined: 01 Apr 2009
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 10:48 am Post subject: Re: Color cast of sever Helios lenses - test |
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dimitrygo wrote:
| no-X wrote: |
Various Helios models have various coating and glass. Combination of these factors gives them unique color cast, which can be helpful or annoying...
lens used (coating: first color = front element, second color = inner elements, third color = rear element):
Helios-44 5,8cm red-P KMZ M39 (silver, 13 blades) - strong violet + blue/violet + light cerise coating
Helios-44-2 58/2 KMZ M42 pre-1970 (N00xxx) - neutral + violet + neutral coating
Helios-44-2 58/2 MMZ M42 1973 - neutral + yellow + neutral coating
Helios-44-3 MC 58/2 M42 1993 - light blue + blue/magenta/green + neutral coating
Helios-77M MC 50/1.8 M42 1992 - red + green/blue + green coating
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Very intersting. But it seems there are too many vaiations of coatings. Mine lenses for example are:
Helios-44 5,8cm red-P KMZ M39 (silver, 13 blades, N000xxx) - strong violet + orange + strong violet
Helios-44 5,8cm red-P KMZ M39 (silver, 13 blades, N00xxx) - strong violet + neutral + light blue
Helios-44-2 58/2 KMZ M42 1972 - neutral + pale purple + neutral
Helios-44-3M MC 58/2 M42 1993 - neutral to yellowish + greenish + neutral to yellowish
I also have 4 Helios-44M with different coating. My Helios-77M-4 also has different coating than yours.
Can you please post a picture of your Helios-44-3 showing its blue coating? Just curious about this. |
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Misha_M
Joined: 08 Oct 2012
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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Misha_M wrote:
Nice test!
To me the best looking results were of the M39 Helios and the 17 blade Biotar.
_________________
Tair 11 133 f/2.8 1958
Jupiter 9 85 f/2 1959
Helios 44M 58 f/2 1978
Helios 44-2 58 f/2 1977
Helios 44 (13 blades) 1959
Helios 77M4 50 f/1.8
Zenitar-M 50 f/1.7 1986
Industar-61 L\Z 50 f/2.8
Helios 40-2, 85 f/1.5 1974 |
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Lightshow
Joined: 04 Nov 2011
Posts: 3669
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:39 am Post subject: |
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Lightshow wrote:
My 13 blade 44 sn00 has a strong purple coating, that makes the worst purple flare, is mostly unusable for most the type of shots I do.
Anything similar with anyone else?
Thanks for doing this comparison.
_________________
A Manual Focus Junky...
One photographers junk lens is an artists favorite tool.
My lens list
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lightshow-photography/ |
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stilian
Joined: 29 Apr 2012
Posts: 38
Location: Bulgaria
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:39 am Post subject: |
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stilian wrote:
Mine's OK ... 
_________________
Sony NEX 5N, Panasonic G3, Olympus PL1, Rollei SL35, Zeiss Icarex, Zenit E, Konica TC
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28mm: Olympus OM 2.0, Petri 2.0 K-Mount, Minolta MD 2.8, Industar 69 2.8 M39, Konica AR Hexanon 3.5
35mm: C/Y Zeiss Distagon 2.8, Rollei Distagon 2.8, Carl Zeiss Skoparex 3.4, Nikkor AIS 2.0, CZJ Flektogon 2.4
50mm: Carl Zeiss Planar SL 1.8, Rollei Planar SL 1.8, Minolta Rokkor-X MD 1.4, Minolta MD (newest) 1.4, CZJ Pancolar MC 1.8, Olympus OM 1.8, Konica AR Hexanon 1.7
85mm: Jupiter 9 2.0 LTM Silver
100mm: Konica Hexanon 2.8
135mm: Jupiter 37A 3.5 Olympics Edition, Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar MC 3.5, Canon 3.5 LTM, Minolta MD Tele Rokkor 3.5, Konica AR Hexanon 3.5
Other: Helios 44 silver 13 blades, Helios 44-2 58mm 2.0 (JOV), Helios MC 44-3 (MMZ), Meopta Openars - 40 1.8, 20 1.8, 80 2.8 |
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calvin83
Joined: 12 Apr 2009
Posts: 7554
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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calvin83 wrote:
| Lightshow wrote: |
My 13 blade 44 sn00 has a strong purple coating, that makes the worst purple flare, is mostly unusable for most the type of shots I do.
Anything similar with anyone else?
Thanks for doing this comparison. |
+1. I sold all my helios 44 with sn00 due to the purple flare problem and keep a helios 44 with sn01 with neutral coating.
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The best lens is the one you have with you. |
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cbass
Joined: 27 Jul 2019
Posts: 441
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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cbass wrote:
That is a great comparison. Thank you for doing it. To my eyes #3 looks the best. The colors seem the most accurate. |
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martinsmith99
Joined: 31 Aug 2008
Posts: 6943
Location: S Glos, UK
Expire: 2013-11-18
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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martinsmith99 wrote:
| cbass wrote: |
| That is a great comparison. Thank you for doing it. To my eyes #3 looks the best. The colors seem the most accurate. |
I'm not sure No=x is still around, but it is a good comparison.
As I said lighting may have changed a little during the test and also to add, having had many Helios 44s, there's as much difference from QC as there is from model variants.
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