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Konica Hexanon AR 4/21mm vs AR 2.8/21mm
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:00 pm    Post subject: Konica Hexanon AR 4/21mm vs AR 2.8/21mm Reply with quote
During the last years of its SLR business, Konica was re-computing quite a few of its shorter primes, namely the 2.8/21mm, the 2.8/24mm, the 3.5/28mm, and the 2.8/35mm. While the outdated 2/35mm was kept in the catalogues, a new fast 1.8/28mm was added as well.

The construction of the AR 4/21mm (see here on my website: http://artaphot.ch/konica-ar/objektive/379-konica-hexanon-21mm-f4) is very similar to that of the Zeiss Jena Flektogon 4/21mm. The construction of the AR 2.8/21mm, however, is unique and somehow different from all other 2.8/20mm and 2.8/21mm lenses I'm aware of (see here: http://artaphot.ch/konica-ar/objektive/474-konica-hexanon-21mm-1-2-8). Both the "new" AR 2.8/21mm as well as the "new" AR 2.8/24mm are much smaller than their precedessors, and they share the same US patent. Similarly, the "new" AR 3.5/28mm and AR 2.8/35mm share the same US patent as well.

Apart from the re-calulated 3.5/28mm - which is quite common - not much reliable information about the performance of these "new" Hexanons vs their older brethren can be found online. Side-by-side comparisons of the different designs are scarce and difficult to locate.

Today I had some spare time, and the light was pretty constant - resulting in a comparison of the Hexanon AR 4/21mm and the newer Hexanon AR 2.8/21mm.

Here's the overview:


First the corners - as usual taken with the 24MP Sony A7II:



Now the crops from the midfield:


We can see that the older AR 4/21mm has sligthly better corners; especially at f11 they are remarkably free from lateral CAs (something seen also with other "first generation" AR lenses such as the AR 1.8/85mm and the 3.2/135mm).

Looking at the midfield crops it is clear that the newer 2.8/21mm has a much better overall performance than the older 4/21mm - images taken with the 2.8/21mm @f2.8 are looking as good as those taken with the 4/21mm at f5.6!

The Hexanon AR 4/21mm, unless stopped down to f8 ... 11, has a soft "vintage" look over nearly the entire frame (especially at f4), however its performance is remarkably uniform over the entire frame, somehow reminding me of the Nikkor 2/50mm. Colors have a yellowish tint, and the distortion is relatively well controlled (basically pincushion with a slight tendency to moustache).

The Hexanon AR 2.8/21mm is slightly wider than the 4/21mm (actually 20.6mm). Its exteme corners are weaker, however the vast majority of the image is much better copared to the AR 4/21mm (especially at f2.8 ... f5.6), and its colors ar more neutral. It also has more lateral CAs than the 4/21mm, and a much more visible (disturbing) "moustache" type distortion.

Apart from budget issues, the Konica Hexaon AR 4/21mm would be the choice for slower work from the tripod (architecture, landscapes at f11), while the newer f2.8 version excells in all other aspects.

More information on the two Hexanon AR 2.8/24mm versions will follow soon in a separate thread.

Stephan


PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wow... thank you Steve for this information and test Like 1 small

The 21mm Konica's have always been too high in price for me unfortunately. Look forward to your 24mm post.


PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
RnR wrote:
Wow... thank you Steve for this information and test Like 1 small

The 21mm Konica's have always been too high in price for me unfortunately.

I certainly wouldn't have paid the crazy prices on ebay. I got a good offer, and so I bought it. Same for the AR 2.8/24 (II). Both lenses together were les than CHF 300.--.

RnR wrote:
Look forward to your 24mm post.

Me too Wink

S


PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:
I certainly wouldn't have paid the crazy prices on ebay. I got a good offer, and so I bought it. Same for the AR 2.8/24 (II). Both lenses together were les than CHF 300.--.
Crikey! Yes very good offer.

I got the 24mm f2.8 v2 for AUD200 which seems to be ~CHF150. But that was a long time ago before the boom in all things old and collectable.


PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Konica Hexanon AR 4/21mm vs AR 2.8/21mm Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:

Looking at the midfield crops it is clear that the newer 2.8/21mm has a much better overall performance than the older 4/21mm - images taken with the 2.8/21mm @f2.8 are looking as good as those taken with the 4/21mm at f5.6!


Could you say that the 4/21mm is better at corner than at midfield?


PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Looks to me like the F4 is focussed on the corners


PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Gerald wrote:
stevemark wrote:

Looking at the midfield crops it is clear that the newer 2.8/21mm has a much better overall performance than the older 4/21mm - images taken with the 2.8/21mm @f2.8 are looking as good as those taken with the 4/21mm at f5.6!


Could you say that the 4/21mm is better at corner than at midfield?

Not really. Look at the crops here (all taken wide open @ f4.0):




D1N0 wrote:
Looks to me like the F4 is focussed on the corners

For focusing, I've been taking this image, aiming at the center (yellow rectangle):


Focusing looks pretty well, though the AR 4/21mm has a really "shallow" focusing throw (probably not the correct English term; I mean that the focusing throw is not steep at all, thus finding the correct spot is slightly more difficult):

The above image is a 100% crop from the focing area in the center of the image.

S


PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
https://www.hexanon.net/konica-creative-work/21mm-review/


PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
tomasg wrote:
https://www.hexanon.net/konica-creative-work/21mm-review/


Thank you fro that link - I wasn't aware of that comparison; it obviously doesn't turn up in my google search results (or only waaaay down the list ...).

Interesting remark of the tester in the above link (machine translated from Chinese):
"There have been rumors on the Internet that Konica quality control is the best among all Japanese manufacturers, but after testing, it was found that the same lens of Konica still differs greatly at different times, but it may be caused by the different physiques of the lenses in my hands."
That's something I had noticed especially with a few Konica AR zooms such as the 3.5/80-200, the 70-150, and others. Quite unlike Minolta stuff from the same time frame.

S


PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for the comparison.
Here's some shots from my 21/4 https://www.flickr.com/photos/lightshow-photography/tags/konicahexanon214/
I mostly shoot it at f5.6, and quite like it and have no reservations in recommending it.


PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:
tomasg wrote:
https://www.hexanon.net/konica-creative-work/21mm-review/


Thank you fro that link - I wasn't aware of that comparison; it obviously doesn't turn up in my google search results (or only waaaay down the list ...).

Interesting remark of the tester in the above link (machine translated from Chinese):
"There have been rumors on the Internet that Konica quality control is the best among all Japanese manufacturers, but after testing, it was found that the same lens of Konica still differs greatly at different times, but it may be caused by the different physiques of the lenses in my hands."
That's something I had noticed especially with a few Konica AR zooms such as the 3.5/80-200, the 70-150, and others. Quite unlike Minolta stuff from the same time frame.

S


Your welcome, it s a less known site about Konica but with a lot of interesting information. Some in contrast with more known sites (buhla.de), check for example the 35mm f2. One thing i did on my 21/2.8, 24/2.8 (late version) 28/1.8, 28/3.5 (late 5 elements) and even the 35/2 is to adjust slightly the focising ring (easy to do on the Konicas) because all overshoot infinity (K&F adapter that is 0,1 mm too short, as are all) this seems also to reduce, at least to my eyes, field curvature a bit.


PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lightshow wrote:
Thanks for the comparison.
Here's some shots from my 21/4 https://www.flickr.com/photos/lightshow-photography/tags/konicahexanon214/
I mostly shoot it at f5.6, and quite like it and have no reservations in recommending it.


Very nice gallery! Some of mine with the 21/2.8

https://www.flickr.com/photos/131684321@N03/albums/72157716502666661


PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I love my 4/21, used it a lot on film bodies over the years and on digital too.

Here's an old shot of a sadly rusting Jag on Ilford FP4 @f4.



PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
I love my 4/21, used it a lot on film bodies over the years and on digital too.

Here's an old shot of a sadly rusting Jag on Ilford FP4 @f4.



Nice image - thanks for sharing!

S


PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Today´s a bank holiday, so we used the free time for a little hiking tour through a gorge near our place. I was a sunny morning, but when we arrived there, it was overcast again. Therefore the subdued character of the images.
I know this place since quite long but it was certainly never so little water in the creek as this time. Therefore the bright blank stone which is usually fully submerged in water giving the images a nudge into slightly more red. Some snow would be nice to help nature and give the images of my next visit a completely different color profile Wink

Those were taken with Konica Hexanon 21mm f4 on Sony A7ii.

The images are slightly post-processed with Sony´s standard ARW editor: Noise reduction switched off, gentle sharpening and contrast and saturation raised by 3-7%. All the rest was done by the lens. Hope you like the pictures.

#1



#2



#3


#4


#5


PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Like 1


PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm wondering if the 21/2.8 was made to reduce the cost of manufacturing, the 21/4 has 4 doublets and the 21/2.8 has 1 doublet, plus a reduction of 2 elements, that has to reduce the complexity and effort to produce, brining the aperture to f2.8 to help compete against other f2.8 lenses in the 18-21mm range.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lightshow wrote:
I'm wondering if the 21/2.8 was made to reduce the cost of manufacturing, the 21/4 has 4 doublets and the 21/2.8 has 1 doublet, plus a reduction of 2 elements, that has to reduce the complexity and effort to produce, brining the aperture to f2.8 to help compete against other f2.8 lenses in the 18-21mm range.


Could be. Although the reduction of lens elements could also be the result of improved knowledge of optics. Minolta also reduced the number of elements in several lenses, while improving performance at the same time.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
By the way, to avoid focusing issues you may consider a more modern and fast superwide. I found a new in box Samyang MF 20/T1.9 for 220€ that was probably hard to sell because of the combination of Sony Alpha mount and cine version. Build quality and feel is surprisingly good.

I use it with a Minolta (af) to Sony EF adapter; i only had to screw off the aperture pin from the adapter. As the Samyang doesn’t communicate with the camera body anyway this is no big deal. It’s essentially the same lens as the 20/1.8, but in cine version. Image already sharp wide open, so very easy to use with focus peaking.


PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2023 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I recently got a like-new copy of the last version of the Konica AR 4/21mm (rubber fosuing grip). Comparing it to my copy of the earlier version with metal focusing grip gave similar results wide open, but better results stopped down. That may be a result of sample variation, or re-calculation while keeping the basic lens structure.




Here's the result of quick-and-dirty comparison of the "new" AR 4/21mm with the Nikkor AF 2.8/20mm. First 100% corner crops (24 MP FF sony A7II). Upper row is Konica AR 4/21mm at f4 and f8, respectively; lower row is AF Nikkor 2.8/20mm at f2.8 and f8:




Now 100% crops from the border - again upper row is Konica AR 4/21mm at f4 and f8, respectively; lower row is AF Nikkor 2.8/20mm at f2.8 and f8:



The Konica results certainly look and feel pretty good; I would prefer them over the well known and well established Nikkor 2.8/20mm.

"Real life" images taken yesterday with the Konica AR 4/21mm "new" will follow in a separate thread.

S
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