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Elmarit 2.8 180: Lens design?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:29 am    Post subject: Elmarit 2.8 180: Lens design? Reply with quote

Hi,

I came accross a lens design drawing for the Elmarit 2.8 180 and how it changed from 1966 onwards. If you google for pictures with lens scheme Elmarit 2.8 180 1966 you will those schemes easily.

When looking on the 1966 scheme I'd say that is a classical sonnar design and as such it could be compared with the classical 2.8 180 Zeiss Jena Sonnar or the pre war Olympia sonnar.

In a later scheme they split up a group. It looks however that the lens radius on both sides is still the same while the air gap at least in the design scheme is quite broad. Also Zeiss Jena introduced in the 60ies version an air gap. So I wonder is it just an air gap and could it be still regarded a Sonnar? Or is the second and following versions an Ernostar design?

So far I understand by sure it is no typical tele design, is it?

Any knowledge out here on that?

Does anybody have even experience in comparision of both of them especially the 1966 Leica version and the 2.8 180 Sonnar? Of course in such a comparision it should be not forgot that the 2.8 180 Sonnar of the 60ies is made for medium format (and thus also quite heavy-bad when getting old...)

My own background are Zeiss Jena lenses which I could afford as student. But since they are quite expensive today compared to the 80ies and 90ies, my feeling is now that it could makes now more sense to buy Leica lenses though I still do not have one...

Best regards
Andreas


PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Elmarit 2.8 180: Lens design? Reply with quote

Hello, I have not answers to your questions, beside having used the first version for years, before the Apo Telyt that I still own; but I'd like to point out that lens design is not everything, glass and crafting have their importance, too

pandreas68 wrote:
Hi,

I came accross a lens design drawing for the Elmarit 2.8 180 and how it changed from 1966 onwards. If you google for pictures with lens scheme Elmarit 2.8 180 1966 you will those schemes easily.

When looking on the 1966 scheme I'd say that is a classical sonnar design and as such it could be compared with the classical 2.8 180 Zeiss Jena Sonnar or the pre war Olympia sonnar.

In a later scheme they split up a group. It looks however that the lens radius on both sides is still the same while the air gap at least in the design scheme is quite broad. Also Zeiss Jena introduced in the 60ies version an air gap. So I wonder is it just an air gap and could it be still regarded a Sonnar? Or is the second and following versions an Ernostar design?

So far I understand by sure it is no typical tele design, is it?

Any knowledge out here on that?

Does anybody have even experience in comparision of both of them especially the 1966 Leica version and the 2.8 180 Sonnar? Of course in such a comparision it should be not forgot that the 2.8 180 Sonnar of the 60ies is made for medium format (and thus also quite heavy-bad when getting old...)

My own background are Zeiss Jena lenses which I could afford as student. But since they are quite expensive today compared to the 80ies and 90ies, my feeling is now that it could makes now more sense to buy Leica lenses though I still do not have one...

Best regards
Andreas


PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I own the 'zebra' style Jena Sonnar 2.8/180 from the 1960s, a rare ISCO 2.8/180 that is either late 50s or early 60s and a late 1970s Nikkor 2.8/180.

All being derivatives of the original Sonnar 180, they all render similarly, but with differing levels of contrast and sharpness, they are all sharp, the ISCO the sharpest, the Nikkor the highest in contrast, but honestly, all three are fine lenses and the differences are very small.


PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi ultrapix: "glass and crafting have their importance, too" Yes that would be my hope with a Elmarit, though I am happy with the Zeiss Jena Sonnar picture quality though not with its bulkyness when mounted to a Sony Alpha...


iangreenhalgh1, thanks for the hint to the Nikkor; do you know its weight and if the weight is somewhere around 800 gr how it is called precisely? I allready was suggested to a Nikkor lens and I found its lense scheme. This by sure however is no Sonnar at all, but a quite modern tele construction.

Best regards
Andreas


PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:14 pm    Post subject: sonnar Reply with quote

A famous literary semi-quote is " a word means what you make it mean"

Sonnar is a quality label invented by Zeiss-Jena. It is does not necessarily designate a glued triplet + + in order to avoid reflexes and light loss in the time before coatings. Read the exellent Sonnar story on www.Artaphot.ch which details the Sonnar origins and variations.

After coatings were introduced, other designs became viable, but the good name had substantial value even if the glass inside had different locations, geometry and composition.

One must be grateful that Zeiss did not do as deplorable "badge engineering" as Ford when they put a Jaguar label on a very ordinary Ford, perhaps hoping that people who still recalled the XJ-6 engine would think it was some sort of racing saloon.

The Sonnar label, however, does not denote the original design. This is just like the nomenclature that Leitz uses for their optics and cameras; the original C and SL have nothing except the quality expectations of the customers in common with the current devices. In the case of these I expect that the current market has no recollection of the old ones, and that choosing old names avoided problems with paying exorbitant sums to consultants for finding new trademarks.

p


PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pandreas68 wrote:
Hi ultrapix: "glass and crafting have their importance, too" Yes that would be my hope with a Elmarit, though I am happy with the Zeiss Jena Sonnar picture quality though not with its bulkyness when mounted to a Sony Alpha...


iangreenhalgh1, thanks for the hint to the Nikkor; do you know its weight and if the weight is somewhere around 800 gr how it is called precisely? I allready was suggested to a Nikkor lens and I found its lense scheme. This by sure however is no Sonnar at all, but a quite modern tele construction.

Best regards
Andreas


The Nikkor I have is all metal and heavy, 800g sounds about right. There are later versions that use ED glass, I have never tried one of those, they are supposed to be improved quite a bit, and coatings improved too.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your feedback, guys!

I found something here:

http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/Leitz_Apo-Telyt_180mm_glass/00_pag.htm

The schemes of the Leitz 180mm optics are shown. And maybe even the same important the lenses of different manufactureres in one picture to get an expression how they look like. Unfortunately the Elmarit 2.8 180 2nd edition is not shown.

Here

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/306988-elmarit-r-18028-v1-vs-v2/#comments

there is a discussion of the bokeh of both versions, which might be nicer for the 1st edition. The 1st edition however is heavy as my existing CZJ 2.8 180, so not much of improvement when switching to this with except of the length of the lens due to the fixed mounted sun shade of the CZJ Sonnar and a little the lens diameter.

My main candidates are now the Nikkor 180 ED, the Zeiss Oberkochen "Sonnar" 2.8 T* 2nd edition (which for my taste is a little ugly in its "80ies modern design" but with the advantage of 1.4m minimum distance) and the Elmarit 2.8 180 2nd edition due to its compactness what is my main concern for looking for an alternative for my CZJ Sonnar.

Best regards, Andreas