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Relubing old lenses for beginners
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:45 pm    Post subject: Relubing old lenses for beginners Reply with quote

I have gathered a mini-set of aluminium Exakta-mount lenses from the early sixties for use with mirrorless. I have a Primagon 35 f/4, Tessar 50 f/2.8, Trioplan 50 f/2.9, Sonnar 135 f/4 and Triotar 135 f/3.5. I like the i.q. from the Sonnar best, but over the years it seems the grease has turned into glue. Same, to a lesser extent, with the Triotar.

I have been looking for a (video?) tutorial on relubing a Sonnar, but apart from a few remarks here and elsewhere on the net I find little or nothing. Since I am (and probably will remain) a noob with two left hands, I am not the average target audience for the average internet tutorial, but any suggestions where I can pick up information and guidance about dyi tlc for old lenses are welcome. It's mainly about smoothing focus, but aperture problems (on Fd lenses and CJZ M42's) are also among my issues.

Many thanks!

(MY Exakta's and and a shot from the Sonnar, wide open)





PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Relubing the helicoid is almost always a complete disassembly of the lens, with all the potential issues that involves, particularly around not losing focus settings. For perspective on doing this, there are some web pages and videos if you search for them. eg

http://k10dpentax.blogspot.com/2011/04/cleaning-haze-tamron-sp90-f25-52b.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=001Nt6tl-UY
(and I posted pics of a mir relube here on mflenses)

and I recommend a read of the repair notes here, especially when they talk about counting turns and measuring spacings..

http://www.boggys.co.uk/page40.html
http://www.boggys.co.uk/page41.html
http://www.boggys.co.uk/page38.html

Getting it all apart is one thing. Reassembling back to the original state is another!


PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread will quite possibly end in major disagreement. Rolling Eyes

There are those that just pour lighter fuel into the lens and swear it works, it doesn't. It might free up the focus briefly, but the solvent in the lighter fuel soon evaporates and it's all stiff again....and it's flushed all kinds of crap onto the lens elements. We've all done it, and it becomes a learning process of how to take a lens apart, clean it properly, apply the right lube, in the right amount, and save the lens.

The lenses you have are lenses I have no actual experience of, but I would say they are fairly simple lenses in their construction, the links Marcus has posted are a good start.


PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a stiff focusing Sonnar like the one shown in your photo and lubricated it recently.
I don't think I totally disassembled the lens, but I took it apart enough to clean and lubricate
enough threads so that it now focuses smoothly. I have used the same method for some other lenses
and it worked fine. This method was recommended by Forum member [b]luisalegria[/b].
The advantage is you do not have to take the lens apart so much.
You will need a spanner wrench and cleaning and lubricating materials.


PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:32 am    Post subject: leave it to professionals Reply with quote

All respect for those who have succeeded in amateur surgery. As a childhood alarmclock dismantler I have early experience of the challenges of reassembly, And after reading about Leitz millionth of a metre accuracy in ensuring corrrect centering and distancing of lens elements I conclude that maintaining excellence require special tools and measuring equipment.

Direct costs + time, plus risks will easily sum up to much more than say Andra Schønfelder in Görlitz will charge. In addition comes the thorny issue of lubriacnts where the minimum quantity of suitable stuff from the Swiss specialists, (that will not evaporate and cloud the glass nor spill onto the aperture) will cost even more.

As an entertaining challenge, however, it can compete with restoring veteran cars in that it can be performed in a suit at a well lit kitchen table without risk of getting hands squeezed by heavy bits.

p.


PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like 1 small THanks, all! I share @paulhofseths's experience - including the Murpphy's law experience of "there'a always one cog too many".
Same seems to be true for helicoid threads, it seems, but @Uddhava's post gave me hope.

I have been looking for @luisallegria's post, remember to have seen it once, but the search function does not turn it up, so I'm still welcoming any photo's, video's and other support material on:
Question what lubricant to use- lithium grease, WD 40 etc are mentioned,
Question how to remove old and apply new lubricant - brush, fingers, spray
Question what spanners to use - I see compasses, sink stoppers, calipers and dedicated spanners
Question helicoid looks - where and when to mark them before dismantling, reassembly procedure
Question et cetera

I have tried @Lloydy's lighter fluid trick several times (old Pentacon), and indeed: after a while foussing is again as stiff as before. No smudging of the glass, however - guess the lens was lucky. And my lenses may be simple, but @Marcus's references are already beyond me - apart from the video, the part on dhe dis- and reassembly of the helicoids is useful, although a bit fast-paced. Aperture blades scare me, to me they are in the same category as the balances of the alarm clocks from my childhood. They always ran ten times faster once they were reassembled.

Rolling Eyes Still looking forward for a beginners video or detailed instructions on the dis- and reassembly of simpler focussing helicoids. I might have to try my luck without them. @Uddhava: do you have more details on what you did to your Sonnar - and what not?


PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bobcominitaly,

I have been doing a bit of lens service, but the majority of those with automatic iris still got me beaten.

Regarding the best lube I found Helimax-XP reliable, and would avoid lithium altogether: it has a very runny light oil component which can separate from the lithium solid, thus making a mess. WD40 is definitely a no-no. I also asked the service departments of some camera importers and obtained the kind of greases they use themselves, but Helimax-XP is probably the easiest to obtain.

One critical thing to bear in mind is that the old grease has to be completely removed before applying the new. This could be a very tedious undertaking, as the old grease can turn into something more like glue with remarkable tackiness, but its removal is critical.

Regarding counting the turns of screw thread to find its initial mesh point, I tend to tape up the focussing ring with a full round of narrow masking tape, set it to infinity, then mark the spot on the tape where the focussing index points at. During disassembly I apply a slight pull between the two pieces, while counting the number of rotations, until I reach the point where the threads disengage. I then mark on the tape ring this disengagement point against the focussing index: now you have the two crucial data points: the engagement/disengagement point, and the number of turns required to reach infinity.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bobcominitaly wrote:
Like 1 small

I have been looking for @luisallegria's post, remember to have seen it once, but the search function does not turn it up, so I'm still welcoming any photo's, video's and other support material on:
Question what lubricant to use- lithium grease, WD 40 etc are mentioned,
Question how to remove old and apply new lubricant - brush, fingers, spray
Question what spanners to use - I see compasses, sink stoppers, calipers and dedicated spanners
Question helicoid looks - where and when to mark them before dismantling, reassembly procedure
Question et cetera


you might consider this guy's youtube channel, he's clear and methodical and talks about his tool choices and reasons etc, was able to successfully tear down and rebuild a nikkor 105mm/f2.5 that way


PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@benadamx
Quote:


you might consider this guy's youtube channel, he's clear and methodical and talks about his tool choices and reasons etc, was able to successfully tear down and rebuild a nikkor 105mm/f2.5 that way


Who is "this guy"? There is only one "Luis Alegria" tuber, and he's definitely not it. Looks like a very useful source, though. Link?


PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:57 am    Post subject: Re: Relubing old lenses for beginners Reply with quote

For good helicoids without much wear: NYE 362 HB Synthetic Grease as was available in the NYE Hobby Lubricant set. A heavier type grease is also mentioned on this page: http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/indexmag.html?http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artjul04/iwlomo.html However for one lens with a bad helicoid I used a silicone grease which is more often used for espresso machines, sticks to the threads like glue and the total helicoid really floats within the grease (my imagination). Elbesil BM by L. Böwing GMBH.

In most lens constructions I came across is a part that I call the contra-helicoid. It has a finer thread. It serves two purposes: a rougher calibration for infinity can be found in using one turn or half a turn of that part (depends on the construction what is allowed) and together with the linear guides it prevents the rotation of the (front) lens glass group while focused. Sometimes I prefer to use a lighter grease for that contra helicoid due to its finer thread. I actually think stiff focusing in vintage lenses is caused more by that part than by the helicoid.


PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The version of the Trioplan 135mm f4 you have is an interesting lens to open up. I bought one in rough condition a few years back and it needed re-lubing and also polishing of the exterior which was quite badly oxidized. With this one you come in via the lens mount where if you look inside there is a retaining ring with notches in it that hold the entire optical block in place. Once the ring is removed the optical block and diaphragm drop out as a unit. This makes for easy access except for one thing.
The retaining ring is located deeply inside the body of the lens so you need to make a special tool to access it. A further problem is that with the exacta mount version (not I think with the M42 version) the diameter of the mount is smaller than the diameter of the retaining ring. So the tool to undo the retaining ring has to be a specific shape and has to be inserted through the lens mount diagonally in an awkward manner then manipulated into a horizontal position to engage with the notches on the retaining ring. Once you work that out its relatively easy to then remove the optical segment and open it and the helicals for cleaning. It may be that the Tessar version (which has a similar design ) raises similar problems. BTW the tool to open the retaining ring is kind of like a flat bar long enough to engage the notches on the retaining ring but it is best if it is shaped kind of like a flat triangle with the top cut off - a trapezoidal shape. This allows you to tilt it to get it through the lens mount then manipulate it into position to engage with the notches on the retaining ring.

An earlier thread here discusses this. http://forum.mflenses.com/zeiss-jena-triotar-4-135mm-m42-disassemble-problem-t12970.html


PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a whole bunch of these "take apart and re-lube" lens projects for "someday". Currently they rest gently encased in dryzit packed zip locks for "someday" to arrive (I intend to retire from my pharmacy job in a year or so). I tend to try for lenses I can use currently but have done some light dismantling work. Broken a few things. Suffered the "Clock dismantlers dilemma" with a rokkor 58mm 1.4. Mostly I just move on to lenses that just work. SMC pentax are IMHO the very best in that regard. I have a tiny percentage of those that have had issues but mostly they work like new. CZJ lenses almost all have drying issues. Olympus are very good but are slightly prone to fungus. Minolta are generally good but can have various mechanical issues. Konica are also generally good. Schneider of course are prone to "schneideritis". But beyond that I love schneider lenses. Topcon have mechanical connection issues, and the rubber grip rings tend to degrade over time. Contax zeiss I have just a couple and they have been good. Good luck on your project and let us know how it works out.


PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bobcominitaly wrote:
@benadamx
Quote:


you might consider this guy's youtube channel, he's clear and methodical and talks about his tool choices and reasons etc, was able to successfully tear down and rebuild a nikkor 105mm/f2.5 that way


Who is "this guy"? There is only one "Luis Alegria" tuber, and he's definitely not it. Looks like a very useful source, though. Link?


sorry, the link got stripped out or something, let's try again:

https://www.youtube.com/user/mikeno62